i've discussed threads about happiness, but why is it such an elusive state to attain?

what is it about humanity that prohibits us from attaining absolute happiness?

even when a person would seem to have it all, there's always some aspect of them self that's never quite content with what they have...whether it's all the money in the world..they want more. They experience love and pleasure with the company of another person, but are still unhappy...

My brother is a good example, he used to be a happy person, enjoying life...he then got married, got a job, bought a house and things sort of went downhill from there.

He began to work more and more, all the bills were paid and they had money to buy the toys that those who work in the lumber industry can enjoy...but it wasn't enough...he needed more. The more he worked, the more money he came to need...he became a bitter, abusive man...spending more time drinking than being a father or a husband, she eventually left him...and he didn't even register it, but to call her up late at night when he was off work to call her up and verbally abuse her, over the phone; states away.

why?

why do unhappy people persist in keeping those closest to them, incapable of finding any happiness, dragging them down into whatever psychological misery that the opportunity to attain happiness twisted into something ugly manifestation of anger and hate...it's not exclusive to money.

even when people are happy...they have what they need, in the amounts they need it...and things are going well for them, but even at the most, glorious moments in their life, there's a nagging, they're not quite complete, something is missing...even when surrounded by the most magnificent loves one can have...there's a longing for more.

what is it about man that has doomed us to eternally strive, occasionally find, but rarely posses an ability to enjoy complete happiness; with ourselves, the world and the truly unhappy, twisted people insist on inflicting their, disatisfaction with life upon others...who strive to keep happiness, they thought they found...even if it's with an unhappy person?

i believe i know the secret to happiness, as i'm more happy than...discontent with my life...but there are times when even i have a lingering, melancholy, and my life feels like it's missing something...i can't imagine what that is, but it does rumble in occasionally.

some eastern monks seem to have found the secret of absolute peace and happiness living in this world, but for those who are incapable of devoting a life free of any and all material needs...maybe that's the bane of happiness, material needs?

See Jordyn, I think you can come up with very clever thoughts and I totally agree with you on this particular one.

Human nature is doomed to its own destinity... which is a lifelong of good and evil and a what is in between the two. Nevertheless the eternal spiritual void of feeling Complete, always gives us a reason to search for more.

Have you ever thought what could happen if one day you stopped for a moment and felt complete, in balance with yourself and existence and grateful of living...? Would that be enough?

I think at the point you wouldn't care to search for more and suddenly your creativity would die. You wouldn't care about discovering new things because you already have what you need.

Great things throughout history were done by those who never felt Complete. There was always something missing whenever mankind stepped into discovering the world through life and death. When it dared to question and died without answer...

You always need a reason... without reason you don't exist.

Dark Regards,

Read some Nietzsche...he's good for this type of stuff.

Man has doomed himself when man brought forth contraints to cage his inner-being. Everyone has an inner-self, and most of us deny it in some way. There's a rare few out there who don't...my favorite of which is serial killer Melvin Rees who actually used an existential argument during his trial. Theorectically, according to philosophy, he's correct. As an existentialist, if it was his "self" to rape and murder, so be it! But most deny their "self"...why?

Society. Morality. Yaddah, yaddah, yaddah. I'm not going to go on a great rant about how man is dead since man has caged his animal-self inside a moral box, but as it stands, he has.

Existentialism is a good philosophy to look up for this type of argument...especially Nietzsche and Camus (who was an absurdist of sorts). I always loved Camus' essay The Myth of Sysphus which justifies suicide. A key argument in why people commit suicide, according to Camus, is that onlookers look at someone who has committed suicide with an objective eye. The onlookers all gasp and gossip that the suicider didn't understand life at all, that they couldn't deal with the pressures of life, that life was too much for them. What they don't know however, is that the one who committed suicide was so sure of life, understood life so well, dealt with the pressures of life as they saw fit, that they saw no reason to live any longer.

But of course it's a lot deeper than that...such as: proving you exist and proving someone else exists...yaddah, yaddah, yaddah.

It's an interesting essay.

But point is, your brother, why is he sad? Because he took a happiness that in some way denies who he really is. Only he knows what he's lacking. And most don't even acknowledge that. Which is really sad. But there are many reasons why most people deny their inner-beings. Morality is the biggest reason why, but religions of all sorts are also a huge factor in it. Which is why, when it comes to existentialism, the belief in any religion is essentially a moot point.

~cheers!

Nietzsche, i've had him in my signature before...and satanist seem fond of his philosophies, i guess i'm going to have to dig out my books. *sighs thinking of the closets of packed boxes*

the hubby's going to love you.

as for my brother, i wouldn't necessarily say he's sad, but definitly angry...i guess that's not really the opposite of happy...but it definitly contributes to his state...what i find, interesting is that generally, the rest of my family is happy...my father is a complete contradiction, physically falling apart, doctor certified punch drunk and his biggest thrill in the morning is being able to use his remote and walk down stairs to move one of his many sheds, but he enjoys life, even if he's a few waves short of a shipwreck, his house is falling apart, but he's going on vacation soon, in a hundred thousand dollar rv?

i suppose that's what i find most odd about the plight of humanity...there are so many variables to what makes a person decide to live their life to the fullest and what makes them happy, or as you suggest, "cage themselves"... existing in a state of self captivity, denying their needs, for whatever moral reasons they have for doing so...there has to be more to it than morals and society?

living in a cage, does make it easier to exist on this plane...especially with those that prefer people fit into the idealized mold of mudanity, it just becomes frustrating when they seek to impose their cage upon others...another doom of humanity?

"my favorite of which is serial killer Melvin Rees who actually used an existential argument during his trial. Theorectically, according to philosophy, he's correct. As an existentialist, if it was his "self" to rape and murder, so be it!"

charming, i like nothing more than a killer with smarts...

what's the difference, if any between the self and nature, would his arguement have been different if he used nature, rather than "self"?

if you look at the animal world, it is indeed their nature to rape and murder, even if those terms do not apply to their existance, and they have no self...but because we are seperated by a conscious intelligence, more is expected of us.

i do agree you have a point about people who deny themselves and what their nature desires, other's decry as inhuman...but couldn't it be generalized as animal nature?

in actuality, we are animals...

it's scary to think that the only thing that seperates us as animals is a consciousness of our capability for intelligence...but i think it's apparant intelligence doesn't necessarily seperate us from animals, even simpletons can exist within the confines of society's cage, and some of the most intelligent people, seem to prefer an embracing of their animal nature...reveling in the freedom it brings, despite the restriction a moralistic society insists upon imposing(that's not necessarily a bad thing.)

...is it just consciousness that places us at the top of the animal totem pole or am i missing something...more subtle in our humanity?

Man as a species does not have the depth that we like to belive it does. The desire to accumulate anything stems back to our early existince in which we were motivated to accumulate the things that would give us a better chance for survival. That desire has never left us in fact companies spend trillions of dollars a year insuring that the desire never does leave us.
I would say Americans are probably one of the most unhappiest of nations as we have bcome very materialistic. we value ourselves by what we have and not by what we achieve.

I do not think intelligence seperates man from animals I would argue that nothing truly seperates man from animals we are what we are.

well that is just life and life only. people are the way that they are.

we're animals, that i can agree with...and it helps me embrace some of my less than noble interests and pursuits.

but we are...different in the animal kingdom.

if not, than we could have philosophical discussions with our cats or dogs...rather than enjoying a few days a month of peace, it'd be one of my busier times...however watching my husband sniff another man's butt, may be entertaining. *grins wickedly*

but we have; emotion, rational thought, an ability to build great things, as easily as destroy them...we kill fellow, animals with rational , not to simply survive...we are animals, but we're not mindless beasts, running around, sniffing each others, crotch.

You seem to have the right idea Jordyn, but the wrong words. And Burning Bush: yes, humanity is seperate from the animal kingdom...well, most of it anyway.

The seperating factor is SENTIENCE. Roughly stated, it's sort of similar to consciousness, but it's a bit deeper than that. More or less, it's the ability to recognize and understand that YOU are YOU, I am I, and that you have your thoughts while I have my thoughts. And in that light, a deeper understanding of you and I can be achieved.

For example, I don't know if you know this or not, but children aren't even aware that you have your own thoughts until they're about seven-ish. In other words, children pretty much see other people as thinking the same way they do.

Sentience is what seperates us from most other animals, and big key in determing sentience is sentient-thought (I am me, this is what I am, I am sixxx(sic)six, a human who likes blah, blah, blah), and then you have language (a big factor in determining sentience), and of course highly evolutionized emotional states.

A few other animals are also considered sentient. Most notably, dolphins (who have a language and highly evolutionized emotional states), certain species of orangutans (who possess sentient thought [they can "read" your thoughts much like a human can read another human's thought, such as during a game of chess]), elephants (who have incredible memories, sentient thought, language, and highly evolutionized emotional states...elephants can suffer from post-traumatic stress just like humans), and that's just about it. There may be a few more species out there with sentient thought, but not many. And some want to argue that animals who derive pleasure from sex is also a factor. For, most animals have pleasure during sex, but really only have sexual encounters for the purposes of reproduction. Dolphins and gorillas(?), as far as I know, are really the only other species that actually QUOTE-UN-QUOTE, fuck for fun!

Interestingly enough, while I'm on the topic, they think they've discovered an insect (or rather, an arachnid) capable of sentience. The Brown Portia spider is a scary little beast. And quite fascinating. It has the uncanny ability to attack another spider ninja-like. It likes to devour other spiders, and has a unique way of doing it. The Portia spider doesn't spin a web, so to get another spider it will actually go to a spider's web and play a mean little trick.

Every spider web is specific to that spider. It is, to use an analogy, a harp. The web is designed to pick up vibrations which a spider recognizes. So, for example, when wind is moving the web around, the spider recognizes it's wind and not food. The same goes for when an insect is stuck on the web and starts freaking out...the spider knows it's chow time! ANYWHO, the Brown Portia will go up to a spider's web, use it's mandables (spelling?) and "play the musical notes" attuned to its prey's ears. In other words, the Portia creeps along playing the songs of the wind. And when it's ready to attack, it will play the "Supa-freak! Supa-freak!" song to lure the prey into its grasp! BUT WAIT! THERE'S MORE!

So let's say that the victim, the other spider, doesn't fall for it or just isn't hungry. The Portia is annoyed! So what it'll do is leave the web and sit on a branch or leaf for a minute, looking around. Then it'll walk up the tree, onto another branch, hop on down to a leaf, dangle itself stealth-like right in front of its victim and swing in for the kill! Pretty cool huh?! Oh, and biologists discovered Portia's possess sign-language! CREEPY!

So, a spider with intelligent, stratigic thought, and language...??? Sentient insects?!

Anywho, the point is: that yes, man and "most" animals are seperated by sentience, or levels of sentience. A cow has no sentience, while a dog may have some (emotional states? language?), but not enough to classify it as that level of sentience we, as man, recognize as being extraordinary, like the elephants, the dolphins, and that little freak-a-zoid, the brown portia.

Jordyn and Sic

If other animals share our traits how does that seperate us from them? Each species is unique onto itself I agree, however mankind has some wild idea that it is not part of the "animal equation". Everyone of our "unique" traits is evident in the animal kingdom. Even the coveted idea of sentient thought is shared by many species as you pointed out Sic. We are simply the benfactors of happy circumstance that lead to our ability to dominate most of the other animal species.

we dont sniff each others crotches but phermones are a huge part of attraction. So you do like the way your husband smells.

It still separates us from them by factors of intelligence, emotions, language. Man is far more advanced than animal by these standards. For example, we as humans have the ability to disect and understand language of not only our species (English, Japanese, Chinese, French, etc.), but those of other species as well. That's pretty incredible when you account that many species can't even decipher the language of their relatives (like parakeets and penquins), let alone other species. And not too mention, our emotional states are far more advanced, as well as our intelligence...well, dolphins are pretty damn smart too...but are they smart enough to rule the waters the way man has ruled land?

Dolphins are not lucky enough to have the appendages required to develop tools.

As you said we have more "advanced" traits which at this time allows us to, for the most part, dominate the other members of the Animal kingdom.

We are not alone in our dominance over other species. In fact there are many species that have dominated other species. The extent of this dominace is irralvent to the topic (as I said man at this moment in time is most dominent) this dominance does not remove man from the animal kingdom.

Remember that the enviroment is not static and it is likly that at some point we will be the dominated species. If we were able to make our enviroment static then perhaps we would be seperated from the other memebers of the animal kingdoom.

Well, I never technically said man is removed from the animal kingdom, but if you want to get technical, in light of Nietzschean philosophy, and what I said earlier, man has "caged his animal" in the chains of society and morality.

"man is seperate from the animal kingdom" unless they changed the defntion of seperate it is essantial the same comment.

Nietzschean is a totally diffrent subject.

Anyways back to happiness

Happiness is fataly flawed. To know happiness is to also know that the "happy" state must end. Thats kinda depressing no?

No. Seperate and removed are not synonymous in that context. Just like: nickles are a seperate form of currency than five dollor bills. Removed isn't the same. Sorry...

How exactly is Nietzsche a different subject? Some of his most profound philosophical inquires dealt with the essence of man, defining man, understanding man as he exists in this world. How is that off subject?

Hmm...interesting. Care to elaborate some more? Such as, why must happiness end? How does one know it ends? And what type of happiness are we talking about--happiness from eating an ice-creme bar on a hot day, happiness derived from pleasure (like sex), or QUOTE-UN-QUOTE eternal happiness?

actualy nickles are not a seperate form of currency they are a denomination of the American Dollar just like a five dollar bill. so although you might want a five i can give you one hundred nickles its still the same. The Japanses yen is a seperate currency.

Isnt Nietzsche dealing with the idea of self and the animal nature as an aspect of self? Whereas we are discussing man and how he relates as a species to the animal kingdom. The self isnt really an aspect of the conversation.

Happiness is all the same it just depends on how much endorphin is released. Eternal happiness does not exist. Here we get into the realtionship between what we understand as a species from experince in the physical realm and what conceptulize.

We are the only species on this planet that has to live with the knowledge that we are going to die one day. That all life comes to an end . That's why we're so f'd up . What does this have to do with happiness you ask? Think about it . I'm at work lol .

Wow . I mean ... I'm not exactly sure if you honestly believe these things to hold truth , or if you just think it's an interesting point of view. But , thats ridiculous. Seriously . I read a little Camus back in the day , but not for long. Too much of that crap can be bad for you. Thats like reading Kant lol . Anyway . Suicide is the easy way out for some. Nobody will ever completely "understand" life. "Oh , I get it now . Now I understand life . No reason to live anymore , where are my razor blades?" .. Come on ..