I had an interesting discussion with a good friend of mine a little while ago. He told me about a sociology text-book that he had been reading that made him realize the importance of laws in forming a civilized society that neutralizes the need for savage behavior in humanity. He further indicated that civilized nations are less savage then others but that concept gave me pause: It occured to me that, aside from the argument that "civilized" societies are not in fact inherently less savage than other, more loosely defined groups of people; how does that statement apply to our modern age of civilization?
As we are all no doubt well aware, the status quo of our society follows one of mindless materialism, stunted growth and altogether meaningless pursuits. How is it that the core of a society can be so un-enlightened, while the individuals and counter-culture movements that split off from a societies core social stucture often achieve higher standards of culture and spiritual growth?

it's probably an issue of superior thinking...

any society with a developed sense of self and a basic comprehension of otherness will begin to think of their way as being right and good and "cultured"

So it all comes down to doublethink you think? Yet counter-culture movements also have a history of changing a society. At least superficially.

These "other societies" with higher standards of "spiritual growth" are dirt-worshipping savages who don't belong in a civilized society.

We seek to attain money because money, despite the old adage, can very easily buy happiness.

I dont agree with everything you said here, also though something seems meaningless to you, you never know the motives behind another. Virtue or selfish motive can be found in both "material pursuits" and seemingly "higher purpose" pursuits.

However, I wanted to go with the science of counter culture and "higher standards" (which Im not saying are exclusive btw). The summation being, repetitiveness is bad for the growth of your brain and faculties while variation and new association = form synapse opening your brain and making thought processes more fluid with broader capacity. New associations and variations are said to be the key to fighting alzheimer's and other like brain diseases due to new passages formed and various optional routs for basic transfer coupled with the organ's regular exercise.

However again, Ive met mentally stagnant people of the spiritual, business, artistic and so called earthy mindsets, so cultural superiority is in the eye of the beholder surely. Where are you putting most of your value? self achievement, constructive to humanity as a whole, enlightenment, fame, fortune, mastering your enviornment? I mean there are so many things that have value on some scale, which should be valued above all the rest?

and please dont say constructve to humanity as a whole, cause that will start a debate covering from who among us is wise enough to impose our view of what is best for humanity on anyone - to social evolution - to relitivity - the baby jesus butt plug - mechanical meat seperater and processed meat product phenomenon - to the perplexing success of Mc Donalds. mc nasty.

I think it's a case of "superiority complex." We need certain laws in our society, especially those that without which society would not exist. But as Jostein Gaarder says, everything that man touches becomes a mixture of good and evil. No matter how good people'es intentions are for making laws, these laws are bound to be mixed with evil.

I believe people should have as little power over other people as possible, be it government, peers or cultural leaders. Because the human is inherently flawed even when "evil" isnt intended it will effect someone in a way that could be "evil" to them. People who do "evil", unless they are psychopathic, usually claim just reason or good intention for their behavior i.e. suicide bombers, cult leaders and Barbara Streisand.

By the same token, without a properly structured society, that "evil" will spiral mankind into chaos and destruction.

who gets to define what "properly structured"" means and impose that view? The emotional masses?

I am a fan of the power of the individual, I think law should be very very basic and only cover necessary things such murder theft rape child abuse etc.

war on drugs, dui laws, prostitution, and especially any law that restricts your ability to defend yourself should be trashed and lots more; murder is murder, manslaughter is manslaughter, you hurt other people the law should be fierce, otherwise it is none of the government's business as far as Im concerned. I mean we punish for potential now in this country, you dont have to hurt anyone or damage anything and you will be thrown in jail before you get court, punished before you get court...and they dont even have to catch you in the act..all they need is "probable cause" defined by what ever cop is on the scene...and we owe the MADD people and emotionally pulling extreme circumstances they use to push their agenda and the people who buy into it for all of this. That is just one example of shitty law, I could be here for hours.

Our criminal law system is very very far from perfect, but personally I have a lot of faith in it. I was actually discussing this with a defense lawyer just this last weekend, and he shed some interesting light on the subject for me.

Its easy for you to say "less is more" being an intelligent individual with at least a little bit of care for your fellow man. The problem is... not everybody has that. There are a LOT of people out there who aren't intelligent in the least, and have NO care for their fellow man. I learned this lesson well answering 911 calls and dispatching for 3 years. People are scum, and they need to be directed or they will turn into animals. Sad as that is.

As for who makes the laws... our elected representatives. We elect people to make the changes. We have to tell our representatives when we want change, we have to get involved on some level, if that change is important (and no, bitching on Darkforum.com doesn't count). Its an imperfect system, but I think its the best one offered. Everyone has a chance, everyone gets an impartial trial. Thats better than a lot of places.

how does materialism = savage?

If you think Europe and the US are as Savage as say Afghanistan or Iran, or IRaq before we were there or a multitude of other countries then you need your head checked.

Some civilizations and cultures are inferior. Deal with it.

I disagree with too much about what you said to go point by point right now and while a lot of people suck, there are good hard working people out there, I know cause Im one and so are the people I surround myself with. I am self made as are the people around me, we are all community conscious, i even started my own charity of sorts.

more and new laws leave us at the mercy of those who hold power; people usually so far removed from us we have little in common, people who because there are so many laws, many of them money making vehicles for entities and people ranging to the city government to lawyers whom are active in help making and pushing for new law because of this.

People in our society have become dependant on government, lost their feelings of personal responsibility, become unengaged, feel entitled with out merit and apathetic. Hell its kept democrats in office in a lot of places for a long time including my home state of louisiana despite miserable failure after miserable failure. Their ability to make so many people think that with out the democratic party old people are going to starve and children will be begging for dented cans of cream corn on the street in mass, slavery will return and so will the oppression of women is frankly astounding. The politics of fear the democrats have mastered for so long has now been picked up by the republicans, hell, it works. go with a winner. and no, Im not a republican, I just really dislike the democrat party mindest and see it as a cancer that has now spread to the other major party and said cancer is eating away at my country. the emotional knee jerk masses, whom ultimately are to blame, have in large part changed the republicans in to democrat light making the "pepsi challenge" that is our elections even more of a draw.

Unless Im hurting people, I dont want these people, whom know little about me or people like me, people I probably wouldnt like very much ,trying to tell me whats good for me and taking away my ability to choose anything else.

I believe in the power of the individual, I think people should be held accountable for their bullshit if it is hurting people and I dont believe there is any excuse to be a sorry piece of shit ever, I dont believe the world owes me or anyone else anything, I think the community and locals are better at charity than the feds or state will or can ever fucking be and if you choose to be a sorry ass (cause everyone who is, has chosen to be), things should be made really difficult for you, which happens by your own hand anyway ultimately usually even if someone or some cause has chosen to excuse you, coddle you and enable you. Government will never law us all into safety or comfort and even if they could, I dont want the trade off, thanks.

Im rushing, so it isnt very fluid, my back ground is of course an important part of why I have the views I have. Ive seen them tested, and am a fan of merit.

Dont worry once the oil decline hits and the economy literally ends, we will go back to small local communities since the government will collapse and we are all going to be left to fend for ourselves.

This is why I started buying guns, learned to hunt and do all that kidna stuff.

Don't get too attached to those plans, Billy.

Civilization isn't the source of ignorance. It merely sheds light on ignorance that would exist anyway. People would be just as stupid, selfish, and greedy on average living in a commune or rutting in the dirt for edible roots.

However, I believe that society is slowly getting better. Things that were considered constants a few hundred years ago, like slavery and illiteracy, are on a sharp decline towards oblivion. Despite being the butt of many jokes, television and the internet have gone a long way towards spreading information, ideas, and viewpoints across the world. People are more educated and sharper mentally than they used to be.
The process has a ways to go, and individuals can still rise well above the masses intellectually, but it's progress nonetheless. But those who actively seek knowledge rather than waiting for it be disseminated to them will always have an advantage.

That last statement really helps to point out the difference that I am referring to DM. Independence of thought makes all the difference in the World. I consider many things important to maintaining a healthy state of life. I guess my highest priority would be enlightenment . . . I mean that in many ways a sense of meaning, purpose and awarness of oneself etc.

I am not sure where youre drawing this from, Im not insulting you when I say I have to question the quality of people around you, or maybe you forget when watching the news that the news intentionally picks melodramatic and unhappy stories while their sponsors follow up with keys to happiness such as pepsi and axe body spray but I lived in central america for a while in a villiage totally cut off from any large society. they had no moder conveniences and pretty much worked from the time they woke up till they went to bed just to sustain their lives. They were some of the most generous and cheerful Ive ever met. Ive also lived in a cajun commune back in a swamp, the kind you have to get to with a boat. They were also self sustained and very community oriented, going to help each other repair their house boats and what not. they gathered as a community regularly and ate drank laughed and danced then discussed the community, these were some of the other happiest folks Ive known.


ignorant, leeching victim mentalitied whining parasites will only be the status quo if we let them. I believe in forms of social darwinism.

i think i have sumtin' of interest, and this kinda goes with DM's last post:

Nietzsche in his essay "The Dawn" had some interesting notions on "enlightenment".....my favorite section is 297, on Corruption, which states "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

it's a wonderful little section, but it is a double-edged sword

in an essay i wrote concerning this phrase, i myself became worried with what it means to have "enlightenment..."

even that which is conisdered "enlightened" is in itself corrupt....

you take for example: Slavery

in the past it was okay, as it was the norm, but then a revolution took place, whereby it was deemed wrong and eventually abolished........now, today, we tell the youth that slavery is not okay, and that those who advocate slavery are not enlightened and are in fact wrong........

but, according to Nietzsche's concept, this is in fact very much corruption.......

When society says "A," and enforces it, this is subject to being titled corrupt (and quite possibly wrong), for in time someone may come along and say "COUNTER-A," which can lead to enlightenement if it slowly evolves and becomes accepted, which is most likely the case (for example, women's liberation during the 20's); but then it too falls into being corrupt, whereby again someone may come along and say "COUNTER-COUNTER-A," (for example, feminist, womynist, that whole 'women-can-be-sexually-independent' movement during the 60's), and if accepted by the masses can again falls subject to corruption, whereby you have "COUNTER-COUNTER-COUNTER-A" (for example, those women who say 'I'm all for women's rights, but I choose to be a wife and mother!').......

and this, theoretically, may go on and on and on and on.......

corruption leads to enlightenment, enlightenment leads to corruption.......

now, no one is probably going to claim that anti-slavery, or women's rights, are in anyway wrong, but the corruption is there........the logic is there (i don't go as in depth, but i'm assuming some of you have the intellectual capacity to understand that)

so how does one really achieve enlightenment? through corruption.....

how does on become corrupt? through enlightenment.....

so at what point in time does enlightenment truly matter?