I know that Chupa posted somthing like this, but I really wanted to build upon it and maybe guide the conversation somewhere.

Obviously, music plays a gigantic role in any subculture. Preps are ultimately driven by what passes for mainstream music...the so-called "punk" rock of today, the pop singers, Avril (shudder). Punks were/are driven by Punk rock (duh), and by that I do NOT mean the current perversion of a once inspiring thing. I mean the old music with the truely rebellious spirit that thrust the punk movement along (ie, Sex Pistols). Goth, likewise, has its own music style that drives it.

Though there are no real rules in a subculture as pertaining to musicl (Listening to Goth music doesn't make one Goth, for example), or anything else for that matter, it is still a heavy influence on the subculture. Some have traced the entire Goth subculture back to the few bands who evolved Punk Rock into Goth Rock. The actual transition, I don't know too many details about. But the idea in and of itself is amazing.

Music, then, obviously plays a large role in the shaping of a subculture. After all, the Punk movement was entirely driven by those bands like the Sex Pistols. With out Punk Rock, could the Punk movement have survived at all? Probably not. Though people will say now that Punk is dead, that the message is gone, it still lives on in some. Goth was almost directly derived from Punk - - it happened back when those bands (their names elude me right now) did...well...something different. Some have said that the Goth and Punk mentality is similar, it is the action or degrees of thought that changed. Goth tends to be more inward looking whereas Punk sought destruction. Both, however, are in a similar boat. I use these examples because they are the ones which I know best.

I don't know what else to say. I wanted to get a conversation started about the importance of music to a subculture, and it turned into this. What do you all think? What do you know about the Punk-Goth split? Or other derivations of subcultures due to music?

I often wondered, looking at this from a slight thangent, what the down was before the masses had access to recorded music. It seems now that musical changes and cultural changes go hand in hand, and in many cases, musicians actually seem to inspire cultural changes, but I've always wondered what the driving forces would have been like before people had access to music in the way that we take for granted today.

Maybe more people would have played instruments themselves or whatever, or mayb e poets like William Blake were the rock stars of those times... It's something I've always been fascinated by...

I think that poetry and artwork had a lot to do with it, yes...look at the realists from the WWI era...or the Trancendentalists from the mid to late 1800's. The fine arts seem to be what drive all of these different movements...

Does that make them just a disguised form of propaganda, then?

And what about the climate we're in now...war is looming, and it has the potential to turn into quite a larger-scale conflict than any one seems to want to anticipate. The economy is down, etcetera...do you think that something's coming? A change? Anything would be better then the flock of shit that we have at the current time (except for certain rare bands) and therefore would energize the underground movements/fringe subcultures?

Is something coming?

Because we really need it. Things are at a downturn, and I don't see how it could change until some sort of revitalization comes. It NEEDS to come. For the past two or three years, I've felt like something like that was close, like we were on the brink of something big...but I couldn't quite tell what. Its getting clearer that something might happen soon, but...well...I don't know...I'm sick of the different people such as the deemed "baby bats" who are slowly destroying the formerly wonderful subcultures from their roots and upwards. Its depressing. We need snapped back to reality.

hmm music shaping a subculture?
two words:

Rocky Horror

There's a really good example in some ways...except that they're just for the movie. There isn't much of a driving force to them other than that.

I agree with you, that something has been looming for a while now... I think capitalism has become so decadent and feeble that there is a kind of almost resigned conformity in the music industry today, except for underground bands who refuse to trade in their musical ideas and integrity for a handful of silver, but consequently are probably going to have to work hard, for the most part, all their lives...

Unfortunately, I think that Bush and Blair's vision for the future is going to cause damage which will not be repaired in our lifetimes...

I've been seeing the discontent growing...beyond the scope of the war...

But I don't know if I should anticipate it or fear it. This could be really good or really bad.

I know exactly what you mean. I can feel something in the air as well... everyone seems to be so disaffected these days... People are fed up... Sooner or later, something's going to happen which will hit a nerve ending among the world population...

As I've been seeing things from a psycholgical and sociological point of view, my friend seems to be getting the same things from an occult point of view, if you believe that stuff. If it was anyone but her, I'd throw it off as BS, but she doesn't really make stuff up...*shrug.*

Things will definatly be changing in the future and i hope it will be a revoloution, an uprising against the bougouise, the capitalists....AND BUSH & BLAIR.
I think people are just about realising how they're being puppeteered by society and hopefully are up for challenging the system....Anywayz back to the topic music does have a lot to do with subcultures...
just look at all the rappers and hip hop artist who have been adopted by street gangs, its music such as that that promote things like guns that these gangs pick up on.

Sort of. Hip-hop has lost its message. Its completely stupid now...but before, when there were groups like Public Enemy...

THAT was the time...

I always got the impression that a lot of those hip hop artists would run a mile if actually came across a real gangster...

Now, you have to hand it to Euronymous, the creator of the Black Metal scene. He truly was one evil twisted fuck... Not that I agree with his message or his way of doing things, but it is a fascinating story...

Euronymous and his cohorts , the "Black Metal Circle" cultivated an attitude to match their "true" sound, and tried to outdo each other in acts of violence and vandalism, this was the time of the Norwegian Church burnings in the early 90's.

It seems Euronymous trained his followers too well. Things came to a head in 1994 when his right hand man, Count Grishnackh, stabbed him to death on the stairwell outiside his own appartment...

Nowadays, you're completely right about Hip-hop. But before...with Ice T, and Public Enemy, etcetera...that had a MESSAGE. I could actually stand to listen to it.

I must confess, I always loved the "Freedom Of Speech Just Watch What You Say" album... I haven't heard much of his more recent stuff...

It used to be really good, but look what happened.

The fault, I believe, lies in the RIAA. Obviously. They seem to be on a quest to merge every genre of music into one supergenre, where every song, though the style is different, has the same sort of content. Notice how many of the genres have been pop-ified...

I think country is the best example of pop-ified. I mean, is it even country anymore? not a bad thing really as i cannot stand country music anyways

Yes, I've noticed this... I think that's half the reason why record industry sales are down. They blame it on Kazza, but I think most people would rather have a package if it was sold at a reasonable price.

I think the real reason sales are so low is because the industry are trying to turn music, as you say, into one super genre of poppy, over produced, mass appeal drivel, which no one over the age of fourteen would want to hear, and no one under the age of fourteen can afford to buy...

hip-hop like any other genre has it's fare share of commercial artists, but i wouldn't say it's dead altogether.
that's kinda like saying rock is dead cause you've only heard stuff like icp and limp bizkit.

there's alot of hip-hop artists still rapping about worthwhile issues.
dead prez are class, some of thier lyrics on political and social issues are great and they so look down on the the "bling bling" rappers hamming it up on mtv .

i'm not a big fan of the hip-hop genre, but there are a few artists i know of that i like, it's just the case of getting off your ass and finding the stuff(which goes for any type of good music).

i'm going to a series of history lectures at moment, and there have been times in the past like the zooties of the late 1940s? that had fashion and way of life revolving around this rebellious attitude. the clothing was to suit the music that was emerging - so that they could dance more freely in the new style of dance that was coming up.

then you have rock and roll on the heels of that. i'm not sure if music was ahead of the subculture, but if not they at least went hand in hand.

...i had a point to this...maybe it was just to give examples.

*shrugs*

i think you're right... I think the two things go hand in hand...

If you listen to music from a certain time, it follows trends within itself, like for example, if you listen to the Sisters of Mercy's Marianne, from the middle of the 1980's, and you listen to Aha doing The Sun Always shines on TV, there are definite trend based similarities in production techniques and instrumental techniques because they've been made in the same year.

In terms of subculture and the people who listen to these bands, such things, of course mean nothing, but everything people do is subject to trends of one sort another...

I think there are actually a surprisingly small number of different personality types. You have people who are artsy and intellectual, people who are rebellious and independant, then you have people who are conformist and don't have strong opinions who are just happy to flow along with things.