WHAT?!

music theory is all about everything that goes into music.......scales, notes, tones, instruments, dynamics, meters, counts, rhythm, listening, pitch, etc, etc, etc.....

that whole "Barogue movement, Gregorian Chant, Jazz, Blues, etc..." is the study of genre....

even death metal can be dissected in the rules of music theory....music theory is how an uber-megadeath fan can listen to Marty Friedman (who has a PhD in music theory by the way) and figure out what he's playing, then transpose it onto a staff, or in tab form, and post it online so we may all learn to copy Marty Friedman....

anywho....you're right...we were arguing semantics.....but, i don't think "studying" music necessarily implies an institution......the band i'm in, the guitarist is always keepin' up on the various styles and scales, the singer is reading a book about music theory as it is, and the bassist is also studyin' up on his scales...

i'm the only one within' the band with any formal training about instruments and music theory.....

but yeah......bein' a serious musician does require dedication...which requires practice....you're in a band, you know this.....and learning, especially new styles, can make you a better musician.....

but again, that doesn't mean you'll be a better songwriter.....i agree with you on that

OK, we've got nothing to argue about. Guess this thread will linger 'til someone else comes along :\

you wuss....don't you cop out on me now!

me likey arguey mucho.....

I'm trying to make something up to argue about, gimme a few....
Or you can start.

i always like to ask people.....who are the best drummers (genre wise that is)....or rather, what genre of music should every drummer learn?

In (dark) alternative music, I'd put Nick Havas in front of almost anyone.
Bill Reiflin comes to mind.
Also Budgie is no slouch.
John Bonham for his tasteful, driving feel. Loved his high-hat style.
You've got your drum-gods, Neil Pert, Ginger Baker , god, who else?
Yer trying to get me to say that Jazz is the best genre to learn to play drums well in. Well I'm not gonna, unless you are talking Lounge Lizards.
I can't think of anymore drummers off the top of my head, I'm not a drummer

jazz is the best to learn from if you want to be a different sounding rock/metal type drummer, without veering too much off that genre of music. i love jazz type fills made into rock songs. can't ever get enough of em'...

Thanks. By the way, Bach broke the "rules" sometimes. You can call that statement what you will, but I stand by it. Theory is the basis for how music works. Its more than just knowing how to "properly" lead voices and analyze progressions. It also involves tonality, aural skills...so many things that are really just the absoulte basic force in music (except for some modern works, which are completely atonal). Its not eliteist to say that musicians should have a working knowledge of theory. Its the truth.

So you can convey what you mean to one another in the band? I bet you talk about chords, where they should go, what chord sounds better in place of another...different things like that. Just a guess. You know, that's all theory.

And thanks Six, for conveying what I actually meant

Going to music school is more than just learning theory, though that's just a part of the required cirriculum. Ear training is just as big a part as theory. We also have a class called Eurhythmics, which I can't even describe except that it involves movement and music and is not dance - but improves sight reading skills and also give the experience of "feeling" music.

There are also, of course, private lessons. Now, just because my Sax teacher is one of the best in the world doesn't mean that I'm going to be incredible. But it does give me the opportunity to make more of my potential than if I was learning from Joe Musician down the street.

So I could come back, then, and call your oversimplifications of music school "elitist, naive, and untrue." But I won't, because you probably had no idea. A music school that only taught theory and nothing else would be fairly useless.

None of that will make you a better songwriter, and at the end of the day, that's all that matters.

Since western music theory is largely based on his works, let's agree that hes allowed to.
Yes, how it works when compared to rules set forth by an aesthetic value. You are telling me that a single aesthetic value encomapasses all music? please.
addendum: the absolute basic force in music that you recognise as valid.
which admittedly can be somewhat annoying pieces of work.
It's your truth. So what will you say to the musician who kicks your ass with absolutely no formal training? That you are still the superior musician because you understand from a techical standpoint why he kicks your ass?

Thanks for driving home my own point that much theory is known intrinsically by good musicians, and formal training is not required for musicians to make good music.
Right, so they are trying to teach you what natural musicians have from the get-go.
I'm actually interested in hearing more about this.
If you were a naturally gifted musician, it wouldn't matter who taught you the basics. Or if anyone taught you at all.
You could, but I had years of classical training myself. So I'm not just speaking out my ass.
You'd probably be wrong.
We can agree on this.

Believe me, I really do understand what you are saying.
You love music, you've decided to make a career of it, and have gone as far as going to school for it, instead of just 'making music' while you get a degree in poli sci or business. Kudo's to you. It measn you're serious, and that's great.
Your original statement, however, implied that people who werent following the same path in their musical career were somehow not serious, and possibly not to be considered as musicians.
Thats the beef, in this thread.

thatz not true...at all

for, if you are one of the best musicians, and one of the best songwriters, then you're golden....

besides, i give more credit to a man who can actually play his insturment than a man who is a good songwriter.....

take for example Kurt Cobain (btw, i'm not a grunge kid nor really like Nirvana) but the man was obviously a good songwriter....

now take Jimi Hendrix (btw, i'm not a hippy and hate hippy-shit, nor do i like Hendrix) but that man could play his instrument and was a good songwriter....

now take Y. Malmstein, or Joe Satriani, or even Steve Vai.....kick ass musicians in the guitar world, horrible songwriters.....nonetheless, they are respected and envied by many guitarists......

being a good songwriter vs' being a good musician isn't a fair debate......just because one might give you more status, that doesn't mean jack shit in the world of musicians.....to the masses, it does......but not to musicians......

besides, you're comparing two entirely different things here....for, what are generally the great songwriters? in the world, to the masses, itz rock-stars or country-stars or whatever.....

the world of the symphony and the opera and all that.....entirely different effect on the world......the majority of the masses considers them great musicians, but not songwriters.....because most violinists don't write music.....just because they don't write music doesn't mean they shouldn't be respected....

also, i was tryin' to get you to say jazz.....if you disagree with that, then wow.....greatest drummer ever is without a doubt jazz drummer Buddy Rich.....he practically invented the double-bass for christ sakes.......and that man could do shit drummers have longed to accomplish......and besides, any drummer can recognize a good drummer, and the number one light that goes off in their head is whether or not they can play jazz, or use jazz fills.....i'm a metal-head, but i play my drums with a jazzy-style.......and rock drummers who can do get noticed a hell of a lot quicker....

if you want to be the best drummer you can possibly be (unless you're death-metal or black-metal) then learn jazz.......

Being a good musician and being a good songwriter are two different things, and they definitely don't go hand in hand.

I'm not saying there was a problem with Bach breaking any rules. He was Bach. Lets be serious here.

And I guarentee that theory was a part of your classical training. Hell, anyone who takes piano lessons typically gets a healthy dose of theory. I'm not talking about the big sweeping things, I'm talking about stuff like basic chord structure.

And if you don't regard tonality as a basic part of music...then I don't understand where you're coming from. Because unless you're doing that over-intellectualized modern stuff in your band, tonality is going to be something that drives the music.

Theory isn't instinctual (except for those with perfect pitch, and most of them say that its more of a curse than a blessing). You weren't born with the knowledge if a I V7 I progression or anything like that.

Someone with natural talent can certainly take themselves someplace - sometimes. But if that guy had a good teacher, he'd get there faster and grow more. Otherwise there is the incredible risk of wasting a lot of potential.

sixxx, I was gonna say buddy rich, but to be honest, I just don't like listening to jazz 98% of the time.
Again, we are sorta arguing two different points. I, being in a band, only have to worry about one thing. That is, that we write songs that I (we) feel are good. The member of my band with no formal training wouldn't be a better play better for us by enrolling in music school.

Being respected by other musicians for my technical skills measn about jack and shit to me.
Don't you know the old joke?
Q. How many lead guitarists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A. Seven. One to do it, and six to stand around saying "hmmmm... I could that.."
(feel free to replace 'lead guitarist' with any othe rmusician..)

I think you guys are assuming that I have no knowledge of theory. Or that I am saying I have no knowledge of theory, or something like that.
Not the case, though tahnkfully over the years most of it's moved back into my subconscience or been fogotten.
This is where we aer gonna have to disagree.
Many many great songs have been written by a the person of mediocre instrumental skills, which they then take to the rest of their band, who turn it into a great freakin song.
If you put techical brilliance before creative brilliance, you are missing out on a whole lot.

finalword, my band , while pulling of some interesting shit, is really a pretty straightforward shoegazer/dark/whatever/rock band.
We arent expiremental enough to ignore keys or modes.
Also, I can't see how having perfect pitch equates instinctual music theory.
However, It is my belief that all humans understand music on an instinctual level, some more than others. That instinct can be cultivated by practicing, and does not require institutial teaching of the hows and whys to learn to be an amazng musician. No, a person without formal training may not know what to call a "I V7 I", but will play t if they feel like it, not caring what its called.
You know, we are just gonna have to dissagree on some points here. If a musician enjoys the music they are writing, regardless of training, then there is NO wasted potential. The point of being a musician is to make fkin MUSIC. If you are making the music you want to, then yer fine.

More like instinctual aural skills, I misspoke. My fault.

It just seems like we're talking about two different things here...you seem to be discussing songwriting more than anything.

But yeah, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree. But that's no problem.

hey, i don't like listening to jazz all that much either....but still, Buddy Rich is da man....

anywho.....yes, i know that joke....and itz not "hmm...i could do that...".......itz "hmm...i could do that better"

and i'm not assuming that you don't have any experience with music theory, i think you're just being asinine about your thoughts what musicianship really is.....

and again....your whole "instituional teaching" just doesn't sway with me....

regardless if you know or don't know music theory or the name of chords, you still got study it to a degree....whether by yourself or in an institution....

if you're by yourself, and toss out music theory, and don't care about it, then all you can pray for is to be a good songwriter....

if you're serious, and study it (within an institution or not....though an institution certainly does help) you CAN be a good songwriter and chances are you WILL be a great musician.....

Opinions are like assholes...
etc etc.
(mine included)