i'm not satanist but rather i'm wiccan and don't want to sound ignorant but i have a few questions for the satanists in this thread.

1) if one does not worship satan, how does the term 'satanist' come into play? what/who do you pray to? i mean, when you pray, the prayer is being asked to be reconized by someone, right?

2) i thought that a cult was something started by a human leader with followers of his/her word. (i.e.- mormons). whereas religion deals with a higher power (not necessarily God)

don't get me wrong, but it sounds like the 'life away from the mainstream and corporate america (or wherever you live)' bit sounded more like something a goth would say. however, this is simply how i percieved that comment.

i just wanted to add that i understood the whole meaning behind the word "church" considering that there are wiccan churches, vampire churches, etc. its almost more of a meeting place or haven for those who share similar beliefs rather than a house of prayer in a sense.

Some pretty valid points there Silverflame...

maybe if she did some reading on the subject she might have the answers

enlighten me then, crypt. all that any of you have said sounded very contradictory to me. i simply asked a few questions on points that have been made in this thread and elaborated certain points about them, nothing more than that. however, if you do not know or will not provide the answers that i ask, provide some good links for me and i will gladly investigate them to the extent of my curiousity.

Satanist ... think about it.

You can believe in the values of a mythical figure and still have perfectly valid beliefs.

Maybe certain people who have been making allegations about Krendoshazins behaviour should re-read some of their own pompous, self obssessed, greeting faced missives?

thank you, prometheus. amen to that!

so far i have been called an asshole, stupid, utter idiot, pompous, arrogant and been attacked personally rather than people challanging my ideas.
yet i'm also the one who's time after time shown you references and sources for what my concepts are based upon from a well respected source. while the church of satan was established in 1966 yes, it was established for something that was already existant, i don't see why whatever you called them being around longer than the church of satan has anything to do with satanism as a whole, i simply used their own text to back up my concepts.
if you have something different to say, challange my concepts, not me, no matter whether i seem like the most stupidest idiotic fool you've ever met, that doesn't give you the right. also you keep finding the time to keep replying to the posts yet never the time to quote me a line or paragraph from something that can be considered a respected source, and to think i'm the one getting the shit.
let's leave the name calling where it belongs in the school yard.

Indeed... We're none of us God Almighty here. We aren't born knowing everything...

I for one felt that you asked a fair question, direct and to the point... One which I would be fascinated to hear a rational answer to myself, rather than a sentence of unprovoked invective...

I happen to agree with you. I see no reason for unprovoked ad hominem attacks... It's an interesting subject that's being discussed, and I would enjoy reading about it, if the topic could continue with less pejorative...

i actually think that krendoshazin has been the only one who has given any intelligent responses to things that crypt has said or to any questions that have been asked.

Well, I think I'd be stretching my remit as a moderator if I said a thing like that...

ah, so i guess you're not allowed to pick favorites?

1. while satanists don't worship satan, "he" (whether it's a personal belief to 'his' existance or not) is a representation to you of something, that representation is also a personal representation to achieve the said goals. satan to me represents the one manifesting itself as infinate diversity in infinity combinations, or in simpler, anything is possible.

that's pretty much the same reason i was trying to explain that satanism is an occult and not a religion, in a religion you worship a god of some sort with their set morals values and judgements where as satan is a representation of something and is not actually something to bow down to and worship, it's ourselves we become in touch with.

2. true that lavey did start the church of satan, but where a leader shows people the way, he merely guided them to the right path with information to make their own choices, a guide rather than a leader would i'm sure what he'd rather have seen himself as.

3. true that it does sound like the principles of gothic and that may be the reason it so highly appeals to me, but it just so happens that the consumer society is the threat of today, and through satanism we teach ourselves to know the threats of past, present and future, for example, something that would have previously been a threat yet in todays world has been bundled up in a new package to look brand new. learning to adapt to become independant, drawing away from whatever threat poses harm or anything which would quite happily stop us from living the way of life that we choose.

then how was satanism ever associated with christianity?

LOL! I've never been told not to, but...

I think that's probably the goal of any thinking person. It's just that it's very easy to find yourself getting side tracked into third ways, in a kind of Tony Blair's New Labour / Zen tradition...

Satanists have been around longer than poor little bald LaVey was alive.... as such yes the Church Of Satan he started is not the end all be all of satanism... if someone walks up to me and calls themselves a Satanist who am I to contradict them.... i would of course ask them many questions and try to find the root of thier beliefs... which I did with Crypt online here and which I have done and still do with Xul as I know him in real life..... there are over 200 different branches of Christianity some of them very radical when compared to mainstream Christian groups such as Catholicism or Baptists..... it is the same with Satanism as I have found meeting alot of them over my 35 years of life..... including when I lived in San Francisco and met several different people who started sects of thier own which were splinter groups of LaVeys Church..... which I might add I have been to... I even had the benefit of meeting his beautiful daughter who herself is a practicing Witch and not satanist at all...... I only met her once mind you.... and not very much was said.... yet it was surprising to me to find out that she was not a practicing satanist..... by the way here is the United States Legal Definition of Religion...

""""RELIGION: "Man’s relation to Divinity, to reverence, worship, obedience, and submission to mandates and precepts of supernatural or superior beings. In its broadest sense includes all forms of belief in the existence of superior beings exercising power over human beings by volition, imposing rules of conduct, with future rewards and punishments. Bond uniting man to God, and a virtue whose purpose is to render God worship due him as source of all being and principle of all government of things." (Nikulnikoff v. Archbishop, etc., of Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church, 142 Misc. 894, 255 N.Y.S. 653,663""""

As you can see they disagree with you.....

I don't think that's a goal of any thinking man at all, at least not all of what was quoted anyway. Church of Satan is egocentric in nature asking for a good few men rather than any concerted effort to improve anything for anyone who isn't yourself.

A very good anology though, especially with Blair just being accused of taking the collective out of collective responsibility. (That was in reply to Prometheus, darn Dyshade posting in between )

Using the United States definition of Religion I would describe it as a Religion....

""In its broadest sense includes all forms of belief in the existence of superior beings exercising power over human beings by volition, imposing rules of conduct, with future rewards and punishments.""