Dressing in my clothes.

Bastards. The Man from Del monte look took me months to get just right!!!!

Neon

I'm just saying, Church of Satan and Satan worshippers are two completely different beliefs, but on the surface they appear exactly alike. Essentially you can't make an accurate observation of gothic from the outside, noone has ever succeeded at such a feat.

*Applauds!*

Hehheh! Right on, people!
Especially about the whole wiccan thing; they hate all these new band-wagon upstarts!

The thing about the whole christian control deal is that they can feel their power slipping away; the world has other religions all over it, and the "Christian World" (America and England) has become, well, irreligious...there are a lot less religious people out there.
They fear anything that takes their children's focus off of God, and so...

Oh well, I never listened to my parents; and look where it got me!


...


(P.s....Jail break is on thursday, 50 pm, everyone!):p

Yes, the extremists you talked about before definately do give goth-ism (if its not a word, it is now) a bad name. Which could be another reason why people hate/fear.

Ah, this is so refreshing!
Most certainly I am NOT going to delete this or anything...
Hahahahaha, I want to keep this up for a long time, I really like your theory, well said, DarkStorm, Well said!

BUT

I also think that most of the times, people see us in our gothic way of life and maybe they're jealous or something, wanting things they know they'll never get. Hold on...It could have something to do with our acceptaces and things. Gothic people are more freer and perhaps more happier than the christians, and those christians want it. Or they just will say that we are all a pack of devil worshippin' freaks who do things they don't want to know. Wait. They did that already... .But what does that prove to us? They don't got the proof, just stupid words that come out of their mouths and that tells me exactly what kind of person they are: soft, poor narrowminded fools who can't see the beauty of anything except in their God.

I believe the Crusades began simply because the Church was losing the control it had over the people... to the Older Religion, the Wiccans would call that the Mother Goddess's Reigion. This existed way before even Christianity was born, or the Muslims or even Islam....and the Church wanted the control back. So they started slaying people--- all over the place. All under.. "the name of God."

It was a mass butchering instead.
Remember the Burning Times, that the Wiccans know about?
The Puritans burned women and few men and old ladies and children, tortured them... all because they believed witches were among them. Some didn't even know... or understand why these people would hurt them. Heheheh.... The witches, the true Wiccans survived, and for that I'm kinda happy about it. I say kinda because they're cool people first of all. Anyway....
The Puritans who burned them or tortured them? Those stupid, stupid, poor, narrowminded folks died out.

Too bad Christianity won't do that anytime soon...

And I apologize for any insults I've made for Christian Goths in this forum, I was just debating...

I thought the witch hunts were about killing midwives because they had influence over a childs early life and the patriachal society of the time couldn't stand that, because all the midwives were, and still pretty much are, female.

I'm Christian, and I'm not offended because I know that you mean the really...Christian...Christians. Those people bother me too. Like Pat Robertson. God, that faith healing makes me sick.

Precisely, as I've said before. It's not the faith itself, it's the followers that don't actually think about their faith that bother me. They think it's so hard to live day to day without sin. Try creating your own morals and living with them. That is work.

That is pretty much true.....

Oh, those are the fanatics you must be speaking of.
Those kinds of people that really...GET into their religion.
Like...some kind of obsession.

Are we also obsessed about our individual version of goth-ism?

I've nothing against any religion as long as it doesn't interfere with my life.

I go with the philosophy if it harms none then it is not wrong.

Relgion is good unless you're peddling it as a way to make money out of the gullible.

Neon

Interesting theory, but incorrect.

The Burning Times? Are we speaking of the Inquisition? Most of the people who were persecuted during that time were Christian themselves, but those who held (or were accused of holding) heretical beliefs. Many of the victims of the Inquisition were also Jewish.

Witchhunts were the product of mistrust, peer pressure, and mass hysteria more than they were any concentrated effort to stamp out paganism.

As far as modern society goes, just about anyone who strays from the mainstream in habit will be stereotyped, misrepresented, and misunderstood. It's human nature to be suspicious of those you don't know. That suspicion can fuel an undisciplined mind's acts of ignorance.

Yes, I do believe they're also called the Salem Witch Trials, because that was also a part of it, the Salem Witch trials were the same thing, a typical part of the Burning Times. I say that word because Wiccans sometimes call it that, since it was a mass burning of the real witches too as well as those of Christian upbringing or Jewish traditions.

In those times, of mass hysteria and mistrust, who could tell apart all of a sudden which are good to their views, and which are bad? Who could tell a Jew from a Christian when everyone, including the ones that were intended to be burned, were in the throes of mass hysteria?

Hmmm. Yeah, to acts of ignorance. But that's just utter stupidity, to just act like everyone else does. I do hope that's not a common trait, surely there must'v been at least ONE person that didn't react with the masses.

Good thread. I am know where everyone is coming from and it just dicusses me when i go to school we can't do stuff because the way we dress or what we believe in. Then you get no respect because everyone is feared/afraid to talk to you because you might corrupt thier minds.

Damn monitors making us take our trench coats off.

Actually, you're thinking of two seperate incidents. The Spanish Inquisition came into play during the late 1400's until it was finally put down in the 1830's. The Inquisition's influence was only in Spain. It was not the work of hysterical masses per se, but used as a tool by the Spanish nobility to eliminate troublemakers and seize their property. The Pope was opposed to the methods of the Inquisition.

The Salem witch trials took place in 1692, in (duh) Salem, Mass. 30 people died. None of them were burned. 28 were hanged after being tried and condemned. One died in prison. The last was pressed to death for refusing trial.

There was a letter written by one Thomas Brattle to the Govenor of Mass. It was this letter that caused the Govenor to declare that reliance on spectral and intangible evidence would no longer be allowed. So yes, there are people that will speak out if they believe something to be wrong...

From what I learned that time, I'm beginning to think the source of the material I read is either flawed, or exaggerated. I really think I should start looking for a better one....

The spanish inquisition spilled over into many other countries, most western societies (mostly Europe), which were all influenced by the church, the Pope was only againt the Inquisition after most of the atrocities had took place, as you probably knew because of the dates you gave. and it was mostly midwives in England, I don't know about other countries though...

True, there were a few points I glossed over, but then it's difficult to give an in-depth history lesson when you only have 10000 characters to work with per post...once a post gets to a certain length anyway, I find people have a tendency to stop reading it...sigh.