I have a theory...bear with me on this one, ok?

I heard once a supposed earlier version of the famous prayer 'Father, thou who art in Heaven'...it proceeded with 'Mother, thou who art on Earth'. And it got me thinking...

Back in the early days...before Christianity was the religion we all know so well now...a single male entity just seems unlikely. Take for instance the concept of childbirth. They had no way to determine fatherhood, all they knew was that a woman suddenly got pregnant, through some miracle. Divine intervention, perhaps? There was definatelyt room for a female aspect of the male God, side by side they ruled, the Creator and the Creatress.

But, as time went by, and the society became increasingly more male dominant, the male deitry also grew in power. The Goddess, Mother Earth, was pushed aside, weakened, untill finally she was nothing more than an entity, and even later changed into an evil deity, a demoness...

Then take a look at the Revelation...'18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. '...sound familiar? My first thought, when reading this, was Gaia...her wine...how we became rich from her gifts...naturally God, the surviving male aspect, would feel threatened by a continued worshipping of his suppressed sister? And more importantly, men would be angered by the women not bowing to their male God, aka the priests, but instead turning to their own gender. A female who thinks for herself has little place in a male controlled society.

'18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. '




Much thanks to Anninn and Agonized for their inspiration and help.

In the books that I have read... When God Was a Woman, and The Goddess versus the Alphabet. The opinions of the authors went strongly towards the female being the main god of worship. Societies were matriarchal and very prosperous however small that they were. Women were the leaders of the household, they often married more than one man and when they died their first born daughter gained control of the "estate".

There were only a few areas of populated earth that prayed to a male god and these were the more aggressive war driven societies, the ones that traveled and conquested. They stumbled onto these societies and felt threatened and smashed them under their thumbs. What protection does a peace driven society have against the aggressor? They burned temples of goddess worship where priestesses taught men and women alike how to love in every possible way.

Mary Magdelene was questioned by one of the authors as being one of the last of these priestesses(no wonder Jesus was such a loving man). Also known as concubines or whores thanks to the Patriarchal religions. They killed the priestesses and anyone who refused to give up their beliefs.

If you ever heard of the Feasts of Bal or the Feast of May or the May Pole they were all traditions that mirrored this goddess worship. Couples would dance around the May Pole and between bon fires at these outragous feasts in the hopes that the female would eventaully concieve because it was a fertility festival, shunned strongly by the Organized Religions of the day.

We must keep in mind during these enlightened times that written history is a very recent thing in terms of how long humanity has actually been around. And we must also remember that the first scribes were priests and history is only as acurate as the historian wants it to be. Look at all the people that actually believe that Adam and Eve is anything more than a myth. Just because it sounds out of whack...doesn't mean it is.

The Native Americans where isolated from all this action for nearly two thousand years but they were matriarchal societies. They had cheifs that could do little more than give advice. if you didn't like it, you were free to leave the tribe. These cheifs were assigned by the eldest women of the tribe. The Indians lived without the concept of ownership or possessions and thrived until the patriarchal society came across the ocean and said...Hey guess what..this is all mine.
As I sat in History class and learned all of this, I saw a veritable mirror of what I read that could have possibly happened across the ocean thousands of years ago. And I was frankly...a little depressed.

Its a good theory, assuming that somehow anicent people had no clue about their own bodies and that somehow all the blades dug up near and dated back the same peaceful goddess worshiping society were not used for war.

I see sound reasoning in your theory Clear, male deity combined with older female deity hmm...

In some ways this makes sense, however I see one of the important factors in the emergence of the male deity to be the culture geographically to where christianity stemmed from. The influences of Roman, Greek and Egyptian beliefs. All of these cultures had both male and female gods and godesses all were venerated but personal favourites if you like were chosen to be an individuals leading life influence. The societies were mainly male orientated but female influence was the balance and the goddesses reigned with gods though usually the supreme being was viewed as male.

Europe was a little different and the Mother beliefs were strong, when the Romans spread over the continent to Britain think of what they passed through on the way: Viking, druid, goth and azgoth. Rome conquered and once they ruled they outlawed the various religions they found. Christianity followed in Romes wake and The Mother religions were swallowed up and so were many of the historys of that time. The old rites were denounced over and over again over the centuries and the practitioners killed and banned.

It seems feasable to me though that the beliefs did not die entirely and that people being people they wove in their own beliefs to what was fashionable at the time. After all the christianity of those days is vastly different to that of today. The rise of Catholicism and its bloody spread across the world and the power and riches of the Church had as much influence as did the Roman Empire over religions it found in its way...even the protestants.

Tribal beliefs even to this day largely focus around ancestral worship of one type or another and nature. A tribes resources are gleaned from the earth and its creatures, the weather and seasons. Many animals are imbued with a female or male character and again there is selection of an individuals totem. But the tribes across the world are being amalgamated rightly or wrongly into civilisation on a huge scale. I wonder what happens to those beliefs and rituals over time.

If you look to the East, the Romans and Catholics didnt conquer in the same way and their influence has not affected the ancient religions of the Bhuddist and Hindu. The hundreds of gods and demigods and godesses of the Hindu faith are as strong as ever they were and they weave in peace through the Bhuddist beliefs and over many countries boundaries...politics has left its scars and open wounds though even there. Eastern philosophy centers on balance, yin and yang and male and female. It incorporates sexuality and does not outlaw and ban inherent human traits like the christian philosophy does. Perhaps this is why their beliefs are being looked at by the western world in such depth over the last decades. Perhaps the resurgence of pagan and wiccan is about people seeking balance again. The warrior and the homemaker the hunter and the gatherer mingling with the modern equivalent and finding their own particular weave to suit their own intelligence and logic.

Back to the christian god and his characteristics, I personally think that people see what they wish to when they read the Bible...you can choose a passage from almost anywhere and quote it out of context to mean whatever you see in it. The Bible was written by many men with many views "God Inspired" or not ...and they came from a society of male dominance in that time and location...through the years and different authors and different Biblical translations the christian god has absorbed so many traits from so many directions, hence all the babbling above about different religions and regions. Harsh and stern, caring and giving, angry and vengeful, nurturing and calm all of these are human characteristics and all have been attached to this god and his name. Female and Male wouldnt you say?

this is a wonderful site...it has information on the whore of babylon, and many other sexually oriented aspects in the bible, and no big suprise it's the females that are most often blamed...

http://www.hobrad.com/andcon.htm

actually there were a great many warrior goddesses, the kelts used to behead their enemy and post their heads on stakes to honor macha...the morrigu is said to have been shrieking warriors into a battle frenzy above a battlefield...I just know the keltic aspect of goddesses...and they had a whole spectrum of women, all strong and willful...I'm not sure of any other cultures that gave women so many rights...I would love to hear some however

That'd be a whole other thread, Jordyn...and thanks to your idea, now it is.

Valkyrie...I agree you can read anything into a Biblequote...but as the Christians use them to defend their case, so do I...the wording...the social structure of the time, the world in constant change...there is definately a possibility. Why else would God, or rather his handymen, the priests, do anything in their power to deny their people choices?

Just look at the Commandments...'You shall not have other Gods than me'. Not : 'There are no other Gods than me'...just, you shouldn't worship them. This, in my judgemental eyes, is a good a proof as any that there were more than one once...but the remaining God managed to effectively eliminate all competition...

Red...I'm not ignoring you, but seeing as your post directly refers to Anninns post, I'll leave it to her to reply.

the christians were good for casting down strong female figures and women who were in touch with their feminity...I think all those anal retentive men were frightened of women! so make them whores, harlots and demons!

Brilliantly said, Clear... Anninn... Valkyrie... Jordyn!

I just saw these quotes in Crypt's biblical contradictions thread...


(GEN 1:26) God said "LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE ACCORDING TO OUR LIKENESS",
(GEN 3:22) God said "MAN HAS BECOME LIKE ONE OF US."



I guess those holy men didn't edit good enough...

what I find funny is that they blame one woman for the downfall of man in the garden of eden...however I think adam should be blamed..lilith left him and eve was tempted by a serpent...adam obviously wasn't doing something right...

Mary Magdalen was said to have been the Bride of Christ. Many of the Gnostic Gospels (revered early on in the Christian Church and later thrown out of the cannon) portray Mary Magdalen as Christ's Most Beloved Disciple, reporting that Jesus often kissed her on the mouth and called her "Woman Who Knows All." Other disciples went to her for Christ's teachings after he died (A). She is portrayed as sitting at Jesus' feet to listen to his teachings (Luke 10:38-42) and also as anointing his feet with oil and drying them with her hair (John 11:2, 12:. Three of the New Testament Gospels report that Mary Magdalen was at the foot of the cross, and all four Gospels note she was present at the tomb. The Gospel of John notes that after the resurrection, Christ appeared to Mary Magdalen first. Mary Magdalen is mentioned in the New Testament more often by far that Mother Mary.

http://www.thewhitemoon.com/mary/magdalene.html#BRIDE

and now she's just a statue...and even condemned by some of his followers...more proof how they choose to squash strong women and keep them subservient hand servents...

isn't this typical?...but i guess jesus was a better man than a "few" of those who follow him...

Mary was painted at the last supper.Heh that painting more than a little anti chirstain though.
Tempted by the snakes food. I do blame him at least in part, if he didnt take the apple he`d be watching all of you women tolling right now.....if eve managed to breed with something else so you could all exist...

it was god's fruit..the devil just took advantage of god's poor parenting skills...

Poor parenting? So your kids have never and will never do anything you tell them not to? All kids do that...unfortunately.
Its both their won faults, they knew not to do it but they still did.

exactly...if you tell your children to not do that but give them no other reason...naturally a child will do that...if for no other reason to see why? curiousity is the devil's greatest tool...and those who are willing to educate will get those who wish to learn...so educate your children first...than they won't be going elsewhere for guidance

Well think about the Stroy of the garden of Eden and think about the sex of it's writer.

Male, The Genesis story is simply an attempt to justify the submisison and subservience of woman. Lilith who came after Adam and before Eve tried to dominate Adam, but was cast out by god.

Look at this. Its the Book of Genesis being used to perpetrate a male sexial Bias.

Neon

and thats why God is good and you`re all not. ^_^

Why Create People, And Punish Them For Being People?

Adam and Eve Were Created Knowing Nothing, totally innocent, and niave, they trusted the snake becuase in their world there were no lies...Universe Malefuntion...Abort,Retry,Resart?...

Neon, I heard Lilith left of her own accord because Adam tried to dominate her, and she knew they were equals.

Clear, Proof that there is a Gender Subconcious Bias,
If there is an Error... It is a Male Function.
If You are Dying of Starvation... Male Nutrition
If you are Evil... Male ific, or the Act of Being Evil Male ificent.