No, you fuck off. You are the one not liking the things I say. Stop trying to make it look the other way around. You bitches are the ones with the problem, it's not me causing the arguments.

Ummm no you are the one who is starting shit with your responses to what everyone else is saying, they are inflamitory, and you know it, so cut this innocent bullshit

Bitchboard plzkthxbai.

Okay. I'm gonna go with Tozzy. We should cut the banter here and take it to the bitch boards.

The Uzziah vs DF thread.

I did all the hard work

Wrong wrong and wrong. And I am not hostile against the catholic Church. My wife is Catholic thank you I just do not believe in misdirection or in dishonesty. Both of which have been assets of the Church in the past and present.

You see me as hostile only because I ask questions and doubt rather than follow teachings that inspire that doubt.

I actually think that everyone deserves religious choice BUT should never be allowed to endanger another's religious choice.
The fact remains that Ratzinger and his family were loyal Nazis during the war. That he might not be a Nazi now is irrelevant. He WAS one, and that is my point. If he was deadset against Nazi rule he and his family would have gone down swinging, like hundreds of other families during WW2. Instead they stood by and did nothing, even participated, in the Nazi war machine.

Attending Hitler Youth classes was made compulsory in 1939 due to a lot of youths not attending, it was still not compulsory to join however. And even when it was made compulsory to attend almost all classes did not check that those enrolled were attending. Those that did did so out of patriotic duty. No fault in that nor is it any fault that Ratzinger and his family were patriotic/// and they were indeed until the last few months of the war in which the young Ratzinger decided to desert his Infantry Division.

""The Fourth Lateran Council of 1215 set up the Inquisition along with enforcement of Jews wearing a yellow spot on their clothes and a horned cap (pileum cornutum) to mark them as the murderers of Christ and to remind them of their descent from the devil""

Hitler got his idea for marking Jews from the catholic church

""After Kristallnacht (where Nazis broke Jewish store windows and had synagogues burned) there issued not a single word of condemnation from the Vatican, the German Church hierarchy, or from Pacelli. Yet in an encyclical on anti-Semitism, titled Humani generis unitas (The Unity of the Human Race) by Pope Pius XI, a section claims that the Jews were responsible for their own fate. God had chosen them to make way for Christ's redemption but they denied him and killed him. And now, "Blinded by their dream of worldly gain and material success," they had deserved the "worldly and spiritual ruin" that they had brought down upon themselves. [Cornwell, p. 191] Cardinal Theodor Innitzer, archbishop of Vienna warmly received Hitler in Vienna after his triumphal march through the capital where he expressed public satisfaction with Hitler's regime. [Cornwell, p. 201] Meanwhile, Cardinal Bertram sent Hitler an effusive telegram, published on October 2 in the Nazi newspaper Volkischer Beobachter, "The great deed of safeguarding peace among the nations moves the German episcopate acting in the name of the Catholics of all the German dioceses, respectfully to extend congratulations and thanks and to order a festive ringing of bells on Sunday." [Cornwell, p. 202]""

You will note that the Church did indeed back the Nazi Regime. Do not try to sway me with Church propaganda and rewritten accounts of WW2.

""Pacelli became a crowned Pope on March 12, 1939 (Pius XII). The following month on April 20, 1939, at Pacelli's express wish, Archbishop Orsenigo, the nuncio in Berlin, opened a gala reception for Hitler's fiftieth birthday. The birthday greetings thus initiated by Pacelli immediately became a tradition; each April 20 during the few years left to Hitler and his Reich, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin would send "warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany," to which he added "fervent prayers which the Catholics in Germany are sending to heaven on their altars." [Cornwell, p. 209] By this time Pacelli could call on the loyalty and devotion of a half-billion people, of which half the populations of Hitler's new Reich had become Catholics, including a quarter of the SS. At this time bishops, clergy, religious, and faithful had bound themselves to the Pope, and by his own self estimation, served as the supreme arbiter of moral values on earth. [Cornwell, p. 215]""

So please as I stated look outside the box and you will find that regardless of the Church's present doctrines they were not all bright and shiny in the past.

Do not take my criticism of the church as any rebuke of you or your beliefs either, in criticizing the church I am not attempting to insult you. But please continue to belittle my claims and delegate me to the level of a frothing madmen, none of that changes anything

have you studied 1939 germany dyshade. especially the social structure. they were in a depression. the mark was worthless. the nazi party was making things better for the adverage german. if you were different you were screwed but for the regular german the nazis weren't so bad. most soldiers and youth that were involved in the war effort were not "nazis" they were paterots. they supported there country and government. most didn't like the atrocities that were commited but all governments do things we don't like. i have the books and interviews around he somewhere to support this. you helped the party for 2 reasons. because they made life better and because if you defied them you could get labled a enemy of the state like the jews, gypises, the mentally ill, handycapped and socilists. just because the pope's family supported the rules of their country doesn't mean they supported everything that happened.

no i'm not a nazi, i'm a ww2 historian, got a degree and everything. I majored in liberal arts would you like fries with that? germany isn't realy my field butyou pick up a general feel for the social climate there. just because someone lived under nazi rule doesn't make them a firm supporter. more like a democrat fighting the "war on terror" under a republican gov.

cornwell? please send me the full author name and book title of your source.

You mean the patriotic he mentioned in his post?

is he or is he not a nazi now?

and yes i dropped the ball. my apologies. i was focused more on the cited parts of his post and trying to find the source.

I'm pretty sure the current Pope isn't a Nazi.

The Cardinals are well educated men off the cloth, and probably would not have elected a Nazi. plus, John Paul II, who I'm pretty sure despised the Nazis seeing as he was living in Poland when they took over, trusted him enough to name him Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

However, I am young and for the most part uneducated and inexpierienced in debates, so I'll leave it to others to end this thread. I would rather my first impression of this place not be tarnished by a increasingly fiery debate, as much as I have enjoyed it.

Question: when is a religious debate not fiery?

if you don't debate your views how will you ever learn or gain experience? some may ridicule you for a view but most will just state their views and point out the holes in yours. besides fiery debates bring out a lot of good points that would not be discussed with out them.

Either or, I was asking,

I have read many things, I do not have a degree nor any sort of college. One need not wave a paper around to prove ones intelligence or knowledge

The social climate in 1939 Germany was actually fair to middle of the road because Hitler was beginning to make sweeping changes which would soon enough bring about great wealth for Germany. Most German born citizens were very patriotic, those that were not were questioned and often disappeared or ran away from Germany altogether.

1939 was the beginning of Germany's' Social Revolution which also began Germany's crusade against the jewish German population. It was when Hitler launched his Volksgemeinschaft idealism which would launch Germany into the world spotlight, along with the invasion of Poland.

The Pope had information in his hands and knew of Jewish persecution and did not share this information nor denunciate it which would lead one to believe that he either supported it OR decided that it would be in his best interests to allow that information to go no further.

John Cornwell, Hitlers Pope.

A few of the things in the book are false and were not exactly fabricated but misquoted and taken out of context. The quotes from the book that I linked are quite within context and true. Cornwell was given access(denied to be true by the vatican to this day) to the catholic vatican library.

i never questioned your intelligence. and the fact that i have a degree was more scarcasm than showing off. what i do has nothing to do with it. my apologies again for 1939 germany. i was refering to the time period between ww1 and ww2 they were in a sever depression then due to paying reparations. i hadn't realiy thought that the reforms had changed germany so much in 3 years. i knew that they started heving some significant effects after reinland. i don't know exactly when the reforms started there. sometime in 1933-1994 i assume.

as to the pope's motavation for not passing along information, i can only guess. i have never been a firm supporter of catholicism. i won't speculate on his reasons but the church has not shied from atrocities in the past. that being said i beleave that everyone has the right to follow their own religious preferances. i try not to question their decisions.

was the pope a staunch nazi. don't know i kinda doubt it. is he now. almost cartainly not. the catholics have no love for the jewish religion but they have tolorated it better than even other christian religions or islam.

as for the request for the source. it had nothing to do with questioning weather you had cited it out of context or someone else had. I just wanted the title incase i ever wanted to read it or need a source in the area.