In life comes many sorrows and joys. Many would state that man finds A god to come to terms with the fact that one day he will exist no more. As for me, I was tested in college by a prof as to whether or not God existed or if I created a god so that I might better accept the consequence of my non existence one day. It was then and there in that semester that I researched the Bibles validity and historical accuracy. A long story short, I have chosen to believe because I KNOW that the Bible is VERY accurate. My belief in the risen Christ in NOT just an emotional desire to bond with my Creator, but I hold it as truth. I believe that Christ was born a virgin, died on a cross and was risen three days later.

He died for MY sins. He did what I cannot do. Christ is the bridge between my sins and the Holy Father.

In my walk, I have never claimed perfection in any way. I have slipped so many times I cannot count them. But in the end, because I believe in Christ and that he has forgiven me of my past sins, my present sins and my future sins.

But this is only a small part of my salvation. As I prgoress through this life, I have come to learn that God will allow me to go through pain and suffering. He does so that I might gain wisdom and understanding of my universe. So timid is the belief that a Holy and Just God would allow pain to exist, but without pain there can be no joy.

So many here will tear apart this post, but that is well with me.






"He is . . . a Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief" (Isaiah 53:.

We are not "acquainted with grief" in the same way our Lord was acquainted with it. We endure it and live through it, but we do not become intimate with it. At the beginning of our lives we do not bring ourselves to the point of dealing with the reality of sin. We look at life through the eyes of reason and say that if a person will control his instincts, and educate himself, he can produce a life that will slowly evolve into the life of God. But as we continue on through life, we find the presence of something which we have not yet taken into account, namely, sin -- and it upsets all of our thinking and our plans. Sin has made the foundation of our thinking unpredictable, uncontrollable, and irrational.

We have to recognize that sin is a fact of life, not just a shortcoming. Sin is blatant mutiny against God, and either sin or God must die in my life. The New Testament brings us right down to this one issue -- if sin rules in me, God's life in me will be killed; if God rules in me, sin in me will be killed. There is nothing more fundamental than that. The culmination of sin was the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, and what was true in the history of God on earth will also be true in your history and in mine -- that is, sin will kill the life of God in us. We must mentally bring ourselves to terms with this fact of sin. It is the only explanation why Jesus Christ came to earth, and it is the explanation of the grief and sorrow of life.

Anyone who had sex before they were born please raise their hand.

I kinda remember a very uncomfortable knocking against my head.. does that count??

::raises hand::

wait, damnit!

hahahaha...but really ims ure he meant jesus was born of a virgin....but u got a ood laugh outta me but i liked the topic..i usually dont read posts that long but i thought it was well written...

p.s.: if part of me started as a small sperm and part of that sperm was part of my dad and my dad had sex to release that sperm(shutters at thought) and that sperm was part of him and he had sex but that sperm was part of me...couldnt i loically say that part of me has had sex before i was born?...

uhm...thats where you lost me...accurate??

the bible has been edited and translated so many times its close to impossible to find out what the original context was. chapters has been added and removed throughout the centuries at the whims of whoever might be heads of the church at the time.

one example, my favourite, is a church meeting in the7th century, where they decided to add some legends and old fairytales, duly rewritten to suit the christian beliefs, to make the bible easier to understand for the fellow man. because, as they stated, noone in their right mind would believe such superstition?

i guess they were wrong...

some other arguments, while im at it.

the hebraic word for virgin, and the word for young, unmarried woman, is the same.

also the hebraic word for swim, and walk. 2000 years ago it was highly uncommon to be able to swim, unless you grew up by the sea. jesus grew up by the sea, while peter grew up in the city, and had probably never seen a swimming man before in his life...

make of this as you wish.

...which I realy should be able to, I would be very interested to read the earliest form of the "Bible" I could get. Of course, if it's not your first language, and you weren't brought up with it, then reading it is just the same as translating it in your head - it still doesn't capture the original meaning. the version that I see most often used (here in Sunny England at least) is the King James version, which contains perhaps the most blatent and deliberate ALTERATION ever made in a Bible "translation" - "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" (which was of course originaly "thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live"), but even then, it could have been reffering to poisonous insects!

the most annoying part of the whole bible story, is the fact that they removed the section wich taught about magick. its still intact, as far as i know, its hidden somewhere deep in the vatican.

I believe there is a book somewhere called "Jesus the Magician", but I can't remember the author. If I could find it anywher I would read it. And as far as religious magick goes - the Christians now totaly ban it (although there is in fact a "Christian Wicca" group, sounds like the Ultimate Hypocricy to me ), even though it was common practice in the early Christian Church AFAIK.

The Jews on the other hand, although all the actual Jews (that I know of) have totaly forgotten about it, had/have a very comprehensive and very widely used system of magick (The Qabbalah of course). Unfortunately for me, it's apparantly based on seemingly complicated mathematics, which is not my strong point, so I haven't realy studied it in detail yet. If you want I can get some e-texts on Qabbalistic Magick and post them up here... Crowley used it pretty extensively, so there is a fair bit of his writing about it.

Presumably Christian Magick, Jesus being a Jew himself, stemmed from this, although now it has been totaly quashed by the Church (for whatever reason they had at the time).

Heres a Qabalah question for you AAAAA....
What is the significance of the four letters above Christs body on the cross... the I.N.R.I.???
Anyone who answers correctly and explains it correctly gets a free Heaven Pass... and seasonal Heaven opera tickets...

post ahead, aaaaa. i would really like to read it. if others object, you could mail me instead.

I don't do Qabbalah, I only know it's there... I could find out (prolly) but I prefer not to waste my time on it (although that opera pass does sound tempting? Could I take a guest too?)

Anyway, here comes Crowleys description of the Qabbalah:

What is Qabalah?

Aleister Crowley

Being Appendix A to Liber 777

Qabalah is: --

(a) A language fitted to describe certain classes of phenomena, and to
express certain classes of ideas which excape regular phraseology. You might
as well object to the technical terminology of chemistry.

(b) An unsectarian and elastic terminology by means of which it is possible
to equate the mental processes of people apparently diverse owing to the con-
straint imposed upon them by the peculiarities of their literary expression.
You might as well object to a lexicon, or a treatise on comparative religion.

© A system of symbolism which enables thinkers to formulate their ideas
with complete precision, and to find simple expression for complex thoughts,
especially such as include previously disconnected orders of conception. You
might as well object to algebraic symbols.

(d) An instrument for interpreting symbols whose meaning has become
obscure, forgotten or misunderstood by establishing a necessary connection
between the essence of forms, sounds, simple ideas (such as number) and their
spiritual, moral, or intellectual equivalents. You might as well object to
interpreting ancient art by consideration of beauty as determined by physio-
logical facts.

(e) A system of classification of omniform ideas so as to enable the mind
to increase its vocabulary of thoughts and facts through organizing and cor-
relating them. You might as well object to the mnemonic value of Arabic
modifications of roots.

(f) An instrument for proceeding from the known to the unknown on similar
principles to those of mathematics. You might as well object to the use of
i, x^4, etc.

(g) A system of criteria by which the truth of correspondances may be
tested with a view to criticizing new discoveries in the light of their
coherence with the whole body of truth. You might as well object to judging
character and status by educational and social convention.

Cut'n'paste Rules.

Peace and Xeper. All hail Eris.

Crowley was far more intelligent than most give him Credit for..
I will put down the I.N.R.I. thing in a bit... I wanna see if anyone gets it and wins the passes... yes you may bring a guest...
If you have an unclean soul please be prepared to face down Jesus... he gets all worked up when he sees a non-believer... going so far as to kill and eat them... Thats in the Bible you know...

INRI: an important acronym in both orthodox religion and in magic. The initials of a Latin phrase once placed by the Romans at the top of the Cross which stood for Jesus Nazarenus Rex Judecorum, or "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews." Medieval alchemists theorized that it meant Igne Natura Renovatur Integra or "the whole of nature is renewed by fire," or Igne Nitrum Raris Invenitum - "shining is rarely found in fire." Masonic author J.S.M. Ward attributed the initials to the first letters of certain Hebrew words used to describe the four elements (I - Yam - Water; N - Nour - Fire; R - Ruach - Air; I - Yebeshah - Earth). INRI is known as the "Keyword" and is used in the Golden Dawn's Inner Order to describe the cycle of the seasons; the equinoxes and solstices, as well as the cycles of birth, death, and rebirth (I - Yod - Virgo; N - Nun - Scorpio; R - Resh - the Sun; I - Yod - Virgo).

Do I get the tickets? I love cut'n'paste, and my sources...

Another similarity to add to my list!

One of your answers is correct in the morass of answers you gave...
Ok did you know that the Upper Arcana of the Tarot is exactly in conjunction with the Alphabet of the Qabalah???
Ok here we go I.N.R.I. yod nun resh yod
Which equates to the three Upper Arcana cards...
Birth, The Sun, Death, Birth.....
Which equates to the life death rebirth Of Jesus...

It is funny when people consider The Tarot as an occult thing when in actuality it is taken from the Hebrew Qabalah...

Ah look, he wants to be martyred. The greatest fate of any Christian. Sorry pal, I'm not going to tear apart your post nor am I going to allow you to suffer for your beliefs, I just want to point out one thing.

You say that you believe the Bible is very accurate. I would simply like to point out that what Clearwitch has already stated is very much the truth. It has been translated from Hebrew to Greek, then Latin, then German, and through several versions of English to become the book you take so much stock in today.

Have you heard of the Apocrypha? Those are a collection of books, chapters, and verses which were removed from the Bible by a council of church elders. The exact time period in which this occurred escapes me at the moment, but I believe it was sometime in the late Middle Ages.

Between known translations, and logically not completely perfect translations, and deletions, how can you say that the Bible is accurate? The Bible you read is not even the same complete work it once was, nor is it in the intended language of delivery.
Logic alone dictates that the Bible is highly inaccurate, even if it is assumed that everything originally written within it was complete truth.

Faith in something, held in the face of indisputable evidence to the contrary, can best be described as foolishness.

I'm not saying you should deny your faith in God or Jesus because of this. On the contrary, I would advise you look past th e Bible, speak with theologists and men of the cloth who know more about the Bible, and what it does and does not contain. Confrontation of doubt often strengthens faith, and doubt will not deny you heaven, unless of course you believe Thomas was not allowed into heaven for not believing the other disciples had seen Jesus, and had to see it for himself to believe...


Shadowborn