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Serious Discussion Discuss The Reliability of the Bible in the Discussions forums; Use M-A-P-S to guide you through Biblical reliability: Manuscripts, Archaeology, Prophecy, Statistics Manuscripts Manuscripts relates to the tests used to determine the reliability of the extant manuscript ...

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05-02-01



Use M-A-P-S to guide you through Biblical reliability:

Manuscripts, Archaeology, Prophecy, Statistics

Manuscripts

Manuscripts relates to the tests used to determine the reliability of the extant manuscript copies of the original documents penned by the Scripture writers (we do not possess these originals). In determining manuscript reliability, we deal with the question: How can we test to see that the text we possess in the manuscript copies is an accurate rendition of the original? There are three main manuscript tests: the Bibliographic, Eyewitness, and External (a second acronym — BEE — will help you remember these).

The bibliographic test considers the quantity of manuscripts and manuscript fragments, and also the time span between the original documents and our earliest copies. The more copies, the better able we are to work back to the original. The closer the time span between the copies and the original, the less likely it is that serious textual error would creep in. The Bible has stronger bibliographic support than any classical literature — including Homer, Tacitus, Pliny, and Aristotle.

We have more than 14,000 manuscripts and fragments of the Old Testament of three main types: (a) approximately 10,000 from the Cairo Geniza (storeroom) find of 1897, dating back as far as about AD. 800; (b) about 190 from the Dead Sea Scrolls find of 1947-1955, the oldest dating back to 250-200 B.C.; and (c) at least 4,314 assorted other copies. The short time between the original Old Testament manuscripts (completed around 400 B.C.) and the first extensive copies (about 250 B.C.) — coupled with the more than 14,000 copies that have been discovered — ensures the trustworthiness of the Old Testament text. The earliest quoted verses (Num. 6:24-26) date from 800-700 B.C.

The same is true of the New Testament text. The abundance of textual witnesses is amazing. We possess over 5,300 manuscripts or portions of the (Greek) New Testament — almost 800 copied before A.D. 1000. The time between the original composition and our earliest copies is an unbelievably short 60 years or so. The overwhelming bibliographic reliability of the Bible is clearly evident.

The eyewitness document test (“E”), sometimes referred to as the internal test, focuses on the eyewitness credentials of the authors. The Old and New Testament authors were eyewitnesses of — or interviewed eyewitnesses of — the majority of the events they described. Moses participated in and was an eyewitness of the remarkable events of the Egyptian captivity, the Exodus, the forty years in the desert, and Israel’s final encampment before entering the Promised Land. These events he chronicled in the first five books of the Old Testament.

The New Testament writers had the same eyewitness authenticity. Luke, who wrote the Books of Luke and Acts, says that he gathered eyewitness testimony and “carefully investigated everything” (Luke 1:1-. Peter reminded his readers that the disciples “were eyewitnesses of [Jesus’] majesty” and “did not follow cleverly invented stories” (2 Pet. 1:16). Truly, the Bible affirms the eyewitness credibility of its writers.

The external evidence test looks outside the texts themselves to ascertain the historical reliability of the historical events, geographical locations, and cultural consistency of the biblical texts. Unlike writings from other world religions which make no historical references or which fabricate histories, the Bible refers to historical events and assumes its historical accuracy. The Bible is not only the inspired Word of God, it is also a history book — and the historical assertions it makes have been proven time and again.

Many of the events, people, places, and customs in the New Testament are confirmed by secular historians who were almost contemporaries with New Testament writers. Secular historians like the Jewish Josephus (before A.D. 100), the Roman Tacitus (around A.D. 120), the Roman Suetonius (A.D. 110), and the Roman governor Pliny Secundus (A.D. 100-110) make direct reference to Jesus or affirm one or more historical New Testament references. Early church leaders such as Irenaeus, Tertullian, Julius Africanus, and Clement of Rome — all writing before A.D. 250 — shed light on New Testament historical accuracy. Even skeptical historians agree that the New Testament is a remarkable historical document. Hence, it is clear that there is strong external evidence to support the Bible’s manuscript reliability.

Archaeology

Returning to our MAPS acronym, we have established ,the first principle, manuscript reliability. Let us consider our second principle, archaeological evidence. Over and over again, comprehensive field work (archaeology) and careful biblical interpretation affirms the reliability of the Bible. It is telling when a secular scholar must revise his biblical criticism in light of solid archaeological evidence.

For years critics dismissed the Book of Daniel, partly because there was no evidence that a king named Belshazzar ruled in Babylon during that time period. However, later archaeological research confirmed that the reigning monarch, Nabonidus, appointed Belshazzar as his co-regent while he was away from Babylon.

One of the most well-known New Testament examples concerns the Books of Luke and Acts. A biblical skeptic, Sir William Ramsay, trained as an archaeologist and then set out to disprove the historical reliability of this portion of the New Testament. However, through his painstaking Mediterranean archaeological trips, he became converted as — one after another — of the historical statements of Luke were proved accurate. Archaeological evidence thus confirms the trustworthiness of the Bible.

Prophecy

The third principle of Bible reliability is Prophecy, or predictive ability. The Bible records predictions of events that could not be known or predicted by chance or common sense. Surprisingly, the predictive nature of many Bible passages was once a popular argument (by liberals) against the reliability of the Bible. Critics argued that the prophecies actually were written after the events and that editors had merely dressed up the Bible text to look like they contained predictions made before the events. Nothing could be further from the truth, however. The many predictions of Christ’s birth, life and death (see below) were indisputably rendered more than a century before they occurred as proven by the Dead Sea Scrolls of Isaiah and other prophetic books as well as by the Septuagint translation, all dating from earlier than 100 B.C.

Old Testament prophecies concerning the Phoenician city of Tyre were fulfilled in ancient times, including prophecies that the city would be opposed by many nations (Ezek. 26:; its walls would be destroyed and towers broken down (26:4); and its stones, timbers, and debris would be thrown into the water (26:12). Similar prophecies were fulfilled concerning Sidon (Ezek. 28:23; Isa. 23; Jer. 27:3-6; 47:4) and Babylon (Jer. 50:13, 39; 51:26, 42-43, 58; Isa. 13:20-21).

Since Christ is the culminating theme of the Old Testament and the Living Word of the New Testament, it should not surprise us that prophecies regarding Him outnumber any others. Many of these prophecies would have been impossible for Jesus to deliberately conspire to fulfill — such as His descent from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Gen. 12:3; 17:19; Num. 24:21-24); His birth in Bethlehem (Mic. 5:2); His crucifixion with criminals (Isa. 53:12); the piercing of His hands and feet at the crucifixion (Ps. 22:16); the soldiers’ gambling for His clothes (Ps. 22:18); the piercing of His side and the fact that His bones were not broken at His death (Zech. 12:10; Ps. 34:20); and His burial among the rich (Isa. 53:9). Jesus also predicted His own death and resurrection (John 2:19-22). Predictive Prophecy is a principle of Bible reliability that often reaches even the hard-boiled skeptic!

Statistics

Our fourth MAPS principle works well with predictive prophecy, because it concerns the Statistical probability that any or all of the Bible’s very specific, detailed prophecies could have been fulfilled through chance, good guessing, or deliberate deceit. When you look at some of the improbable prophecies of the Old and New Testaments, it seems incredible that skeptics — knowing the authenticity and historicity of the texts — could reject the statistical verdict: the Bible is the Word of God, and Jesus Christ is the Son of God, just as Scripture predicted many times and in many ways.

The Bible was written over a span of 1500 years by forty different human authors in three different languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek), on hundreds of subjects. And yet there is one consistent, noncontradictory theme that runs through it all: God’s redemption of humankind. Clearly, Statistical probability is a powerful indicator of the trustworthiness of Scripture.

The next time someone denies the reliability of Scripture, just remember the acronym MAPS, and you will be equipped to give an answer and a reason for the hope that lies within you (1 Pet. 3:15). Manuscripts, Archaeology, Prophecy, and Statistics not only chart a secure course on the turnpikes of skepticism but also demonstrate definitively that the Bible is indeed divine rather than human in origin.




www.equip.org


  
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05-03-01

I'm having trouble believing that this post is an attempt at seriousness. The words "Bible" and "reliability" simply don't go together.


This world can turn me down
But I won't turn away
And I won't duck and run
'Cuz I'm not built that way
When everything is gone
There's nothing there to fear
This world can not bring me down,
No, 'cuz I'm already here

-"Duck & Run", 3 Doors Down
  
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05-03-01

Quote:
Originally posted by Judgement
I'm having trouble believing that this post is an attempt at seriousness. The words "Bible" and "reliability" simply don't go together.
Correct, seeing as the bible is filled with contradictions and whatnot.


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05-03-01

How 'bout we talk about these " contradictions" John.

Care too?
  
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05-03-01

Well, obviously that was the reason but I didn't feel like pointing it out because I was hoping whatchamaking would have at least enough intelligence to grasp the implications of my statement.


This world can turn me down
But I won't turn away
And I won't duck and run
'Cuz I'm not built that way
When everything is gone
There's nothing there to fear
This world can not bring me down,
No, 'cuz I'm already here

-"Duck & Run", 3 Doors Down
  
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05-03-01

If I have to point them out, then you really ARE an idiot, samich.


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05-03-01

No, dearest John, the onus is on YOU my friend.
YOU are the lad who declares there are contradicitons in the Bible.
WELL, let's hear about them John. What are they?
  
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05-03-01

First, you have read the bible haven't you?


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05-03-01

WOW. This really shouldn't suprise me I guess.
You are like most kids who only know how to throw temper tantrums.

JOHN, I am still waiting for you to BACK UP your contention that the Bible is full of "contradictions".

Come on now boy, I am TRYING to give you some credit here by giving you opportunity after opportunity to show that you have some ability to debate.

You made the accusation John, now..........BACK IT UP.
Come on.....let's go......get a move on.
  
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05-03-01

Well, besides the fact that there are the ten commandments which we are supposed to follow, and then throughout most of the bible there is killing, and God say kill this and kill that... plus the fact that Jesus got rid of the ten commandments and made that whole love thyself and love thy neighbor...

That's just the start of it.. I'm too tired at the moment to plop out the rest.


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05-03-01

UH, john, dude, you really MUST be tired.
Where oh where does God say, "kill this and kill that"
Could you tell me where that is found?
  
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05-03-01

UH, john, dude, you really MUST be tired.
Where oh where does God say, "kill this and kill that"
Could you tell me where that is found?
And Jesus got rid of the Ten Commandmants?
LOL....come on now john.
Maybe I just totally misjudged you. You really don't know your stuff at all do you?
  
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05-03-01

The Israelites convinced an enemy tribe to convert to the one, true God. To show their willingness, all the men of the village endured a circumcision, which usually causes several days of weakness afterwards. After all the men were weak from the circumcision, the Israelites attacked the village, killed the men, raped the women and took the children for slaves, burning the village after them to the ground.


This world can turn me down
But I won't turn away
And I won't duck and run
'Cuz I'm not built that way
When everything is gone
There's nothing there to fear
This world can not bring me down,
No, 'cuz I'm already here

-"Duck & Run", 3 Doors Down
  
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05-03-01

Thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live
(Changed to: Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live by the Catholics during the Dark Ages so they could go around killing off a ton of people)

Then there's the fact that God killed a ton of people and animals with that great flood... plus isn't there something about you can kill someone if they kill you?


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05-03-01

hi,
well, here is where god says:"kill this, kill that", my friend:
Chronicle(or whatever it's called in english, i have a german bible)21...just read that...i can write down what is being said in short:
there is this David-guy that wants to count the people on the land between Beersheba and Dan...
So Joab had to go and count the fuckers...
he came back from his "quest" and counted 1100000 men in israel and 470000 in Juda...
God saw what happened and decided to make the people in israel pay for what DAVID(not the people, but David)has done...
So God said, that david can choose between 3 "tortures"...
1. that his nation has to starve for 3 years,
2. that he has to flea from his foes for 3 months
3. that the pest will break out for 3 days and that god's "death-angel" will kill many people in israel...

David said "It's a tough choice, but i know that god is forgiving. In this case i will choose number 3, the pest."

So god sent his fucking angel and he killed 70000 people...and then god sent his angel-whore to go to Jerusalem and kill people there, but then he thought "i'm the all-forgiving father...i've killed enough people already...poor bastards" and he didn't send his angel.

I guess this prooves that god's a fucking dick...doesn't it??? and if you say: it was David's choice, well thenm FUCK YOU!!! It was still god that killed 70000 people!!!

and if some city-names are wrong, sorry...as i said before, they're all from the german bible!!!
HS
Jonas

Last edited by painful_clutch_ : 05-03-01 at 11:41.
  
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But Praytell. - 05-03-01

Does Hebrew translate directly into Greek, Greek into
English, Latin into English?

If not then how can you say you are reading the original
bible, at it was meant to be read? And what
about Salique? Plays on word?


Poetry cerently wont rhyme anymore>

Comments? Questions?
  
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05-03-01

sorry, but i don't understand what you are trying to tell me It's the original bible i'm reading, it was just translated to german...
  
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05-03-01

The bible doesn't translate well directly from the original language.

When the bible was translated into the King James Version, many times the scribers just didn't understand the original word and added other words to "clarify". In some cases this has changed a great deal.

And the bible was greatly contridctory. Especially in the new testament.

Jesus came and did away with the ten commandments, changing them to two instead.

1. Love thy neighbor as thyself.
2. Love god with all your heart.

The theory is that if you follow those 2 commandments, you won't break any of the original 10. (Technically it should work.)

The problem is, after Jesus ascended, the apostles got ahold of christianity. And while they are only human living in a judgemental society, many of the lesson's they taught went against those two commandments.

Not only that, they added rules to the christian religion. They did just what Jesus despised and became like the Pharisee's. (Jesus did not like the Pharisee's because they added rules to the jewish faith supposedly to make the jews follow the law better. But many of the rules were just stupid.)

My best example of this is Paul. Now Paul did some ok things in his life. He certainly suffered greatly, but he had a tendency to let his own life influence his decisions.

His first was his view on women. Paul had never spent much time around them. Therefore he was of the belief that women should be seen and not heard. Their place in the church was to be quiet. Which is absurd, and no where did Jesus tell anyone that women were inferior to men.

Also, Paul stated many times that it was better to remain single then to marry. In fact one of the only reason's you should marry is if you were unable to handle the temptations of wanting to have sex. (And we know those marriages that are based purely on sex are such happy affairs in later years.)

Even though God first sanctified and blessed marriage in the beginning. God likes us to be married, but according to Paul, the best way to become the perfect christian is to stay single. (Which is why we have so many priests giving marital advice, and not actually knowing anything about it.)

So yes, the bible does contridict itself. Mostly because it was written to be so open to interpretation.

The bible was given as a guide book, not necessarily a follow to the letter kind of thing.

Besides, if you follow the first two commandments that Jesus gave, you don't need the bible in the first place. You'll embody everything christ has in mind.


They who understand the difference between the creation and the creator, and know the technique of liberation from the trap of Maya, with the help of knowledge, attain the Supreme. (13.34) -Bhagavad Gita
  
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OH, YOU'RE ONE OF THESE GUYS!!! - 05-03-01

First of all, a few questions:

1.) Are you a Christian?

2.) Do you read Josh McDowell?

3.) Are you trying to prove or DIS-prove the Bible?

I myself am a freestyle, philosophical Satanist who had to listen to all of this during my sophomore year in Bible class, has read the Bible four times, and regularly reads all of the books that my good friend, a Jewish rabbi, sneaks out of the synagogue for me that aren't available to the public and that are basically copies of everything you described in the manuscript section of your essay. He taught me the basics of how to translate ancient Aramaic.
Here are the basic reasons why the Bible cannot and WILL not ever be able to be proved, no matter how many scientists claim to have found the remnants of Noah's Ark, the Ark of the Covenant, the pages of the Dead Sea Scrolls-- BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!!!

1.)So many ancient Hebrew texts that are VERIFIABLE works--that the original Cannon SHOULD have included in both the Old AND New Testaments in the first few centuries A.D., when they were piecing the modern Bible together, WERE LEFT OUT--why? Who the hell knows? Most people say the apocalyptic texts were left out b/c they were written by false prophets, but that's still up for debate. I'm talking about the ancient texts on Lilith, etc. that they deliberately cut out for reasons of making the Bible "appropriate"-- you know what that spells? What the Church has spelled ever since its beginnings-- C-O-R-R-U-P-T-I-O-N!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2.) Go see the movie "The Last Testament of Jesus Christ" starring Willem Dafoe. That's all I have to say. I actually have about 10,000 more points to make on this subject, but I have things to do right now so I'll post later.

~*Rayn Nocturna*~


I'm a girl, not a guy-- first thing to get straight.

Chlamydia is not a flower.

"There is a beast in every man
that should be exercised, not
exorcised."
--Anton LaVey

"Death is here, Death is there,
Death is busy everywhere...
First our pleasures die- and then
Our hopes, and then our fears-
And when
These are dead, the debt is due,
Dust claims dust- and we die too."
--Percy Bysshe Shelley

"...I don't care what you think,
You'll never understand me."
--Slipknot

Drink Faygo!
  
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