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Reload this Page The Pope's inflammatory comments about Islam
Serious Discussion Discuss The Pope's inflammatory comments about Islam in the Discussions forums; omg, because it was 60 years ago it doesnt count. fucking redneck....

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09-20-06

omg, because it was 60 years ago it doesnt count. fucking redneck.


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09-20-06

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyshade View Post
In WW2 the Catholic Church supported German persecution of the Jews
Prove it. Thats a silly lie on par with 9/11 was an inside job. But since you brought up persecution of Jews, I know a group of people today doing that.

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mis...handnazis.html
  
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09-20-06

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Originally Posted by Billy the Kidd View Post
Prove it. Thats a silly lie on par with 9/11 was an inside job. But since you brought up persecution of Jews, I know a group of people today doing that.

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mis...handnazis.html
prove that its a lie. you cant, your proof is just people talking just like mine is.


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09-20-06

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Originally Posted by Manifesto View Post
prove that its a lie. you cant, your proof is just people talking just like mine is.
You mean, the actual document speeches the pope gave denouncing the nazis doesnt count? Shit!
  
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09-20-06

Pius XII Saved More Jews Than Schindler

Interview with Historian Rabbi David Dalin of New York

You have labeled historians who have criticized Pope Pius XII as revisionists. Why?

Today there is a new generation of journalists and experts determined to discredit the documented efforts of Pius XII to save the Jews during the Holocaust. This generation is inspired by Rolf Hochhuth's play "The Vicar", which has no historical value, but levels controversial accusations against this Pope. However, Eugenio Pacelli's detractors ignore or neglect Pinchas Lapide's enlightening study.

[Lapide] was consul general of Israel in Milan and met with many Italian Jews who survived the Holocaust. In his work, Lapide documents how Pius XII worked for the salvation of at least 700,000 from the hands of the Nazis. However, according to another estimate, this figure rises to 860,000.

Why, then, has there been this change in appreciation?

I call today's critics revisionists because they reverse the judgement of history, namely, the recognition given to Pius XII by his contemporaries, among whom is Nobel Prize [winner] Albert Einstein, Chief Rabbi Isaac Herzog of Israel, Prime Ministers Golda Meir and Moshe Sharett; and, in Italy, people like Raffaele Cantoni, who at the time was president of the Italian Union of Jewish Communities. But many articles published at different times in Boston's Jewish Advocate, The Times of London, and The New York Times can also be perused.

What did Pope Pacelli do for the Jews?

We have much documentation, which shows that in no way did he remain silent. What is more, he spoke out loudly against Hitler and almost" everyone saw him as an opponent of the Nazi regime. During the German occupation of Rome, Pius XII secretly instructed the Catholic clergy to use all means to save as many human lives as possible

In this way, he saved thousands of Italian Jews from deportation. While 80% of European Jews died in those years, 80% of Italian Jews were saved. In Rome alone, 155 convents and monasteries gave refuge to some 5,000 Jews. At any given moment, at least 3,000 were saved in the papal residence of Castel Gandolfo, being freed from deportation to German concentration camps.

For nine months, 60 Jews lived with the Jesuits at the Pontifical Gregorian University, and many others were hidden in the basement of the Biblical Institute. Following Pius XII's instructions, risking their own lives, many priests and monks made possible the salvation of hundreds of Jewish lives.

But the Pope never publicly denounced the anti-Semitic laws and persecution of the Jews.

His silence was an effective strategy directed to protecting the greatest possible number of Jews from deportation. An explicit and severe denunciation of the Nazis by the Pope would have been an invitation to reprisals, and would have worsened attitudes toward Jews throughout Europe.

Of course one can ask: What could be worse than the extermination of 6 million Jews? The answer is simple and terribly honest: the killing of hundreds of thousands of other Jews. The revisionist critics of Pius XII know that both Jewish leaders as well as Catholic bishops, who came from occupied countries, advised Pacelli not to protest publicly against the atrocities committed by the Nazis.

We have evidence that, when the bishop of Munster wished to pronounce himself against the persecution of the Jews in Germany, the leaders of the Jewish communities of his diocese begged him not to do so, as it would have caused a harsher repression against them.

Don't you think that the excommunication of Nazis would have helped?

Yes, I would like to think so and deep down I think that at least there should have been an attempt to pronounce a papal excommunication. However, despite these sentiments, the documents suggest that the excommunication of Hitler would have been a merely symbolic gesture.

Would it not have been better than silence?

On the contrary. History teaches that a formal excommunication could have achieved the opposite result. Father Luigi Sturzo and the former chief rabbi of Denmark, for example, were specifically afraid of this. The Nazis themselves interpreted Pius XII's Christmas 1942 address as a clear condemnation of their regime and a demand in favour of Europe's Jews. The anger among the Nazis could have elicited catastrophic reactions for the security and fortune of the papacy itself in the years following the War.

A papal condemnation of the Nazis implied the well-founded and diffused suspicion at the time that Hitler would have sought vengeance in the person of the Pope himself, by attacking the Vatican. Rudolph Rahn, the Nazi ambassador in Rome, confirmed the existence of these plans, which he himself helped to forestall.

In your writings, you propose a new historiography written by Jews on the "Pius XII case". What do you mean?

I think the time has arrived on the Jewish side to get to work on a new reconstruction of the relation between Pius XII and the Holocaust. This reconstruction, closer to the facts, namely, of what Pius XII really did for the Jews, would arrive at diametrically opposite conclusions to the gratuitous ones of John Cornwell's book, "Hitler's Pope".

Pius XII was not Hitler's Pope, but the greatest defender that we Jews have ever had, and precisely at the time when we needed it.

This new work of historiography should be based in the judgement that his contemporaries made of the efforts, successes and failures of Pius XII, as well as of the way in which the Jews who survived the Holocaust evaluated (or revaluated) his life and influence in the succeeding decades.

Pope Pacelli was righteous among the nations, who must be recognized for having protected and saved hundreds of thousands of Jews. It is difficult to imagine that so many world Jewish leaders, in such different continents, could have been mistaken or confused when it came to praising the Pope's conduct during the War. Their gratitude to Pius XII lasted a long time, and it was genuine and pro-found.
http://www.pius-xii.com/
  
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09-20-06

WTFE...

yeah, hitler said he didnt kill any jews too.


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09-20-06

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manifesto View Post
WTFE...

yeah, hitler said he didnt kill any jews too.
Its ok, enjoy your crow. next time remember to read up on something before you swallow a bullshit story like the pope supported killing jews, also 9/11 wasnt an inside job, you probably believe that too.
  
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09-20-06

listen here, buddy... just because some priest touched your no-no place and you have soft spot for old father o'killajew doesnt mean you get to talk shit. your "proof" is propaganda just like mine is, and history is built on it... the catholics are powerfull and can make their own history based on lies and stories of purity but the truth is they are just as evil and malevolent as any other religion. there are many people who say that the catholic church persecuted them... prove that its a lie, give me 100% solid proof that it is untrue and I might listen to your right wing bullshit for a minute or two... untill then shut the fuck up.


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09-20-06

whats funny hear is that the pope didnt actually say anything about the muslims he just qouted a 16century document.

whats sad is that the pope has to apologize i ask those argueing with Billy to stop and think about what that means for just one second. Think about what it means for one of the oldest and supposedly still powerful western religions to have to cowtail to this religous group. Its kind of scary soon Bush will be apologizing to the familys of terroists that flew the plains into the wtc.

Sure the catholic church has a sterling historical record of committing some wonderful deeds but the popullation base of the people still involved with catholsism today are certainly more subdued so in my opinion it becomes increadibly dangerous for any group to swallow its words when speaking out against the violence associated with islam. It is even more concerting when one differing relgious group most apologize.


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09-20-06

Quote:
Originally Posted by theburningbush View Post
whats funny hear is that the pope didnt actually say anything about the muslims he just qouted a 16century document.

whats sad is that the pope has to apologize i ask those argueing with Billy to stop and think about what that means for just one second. Think about what it means for one of the oldest and supposedly still powerful western religions to have to cowtail to this religous group. Its kind of scary soon Bush will be apologizing to the familys of terroists that flew the plains into the wtc.

Sure the catholic church has a sterling historical record of committing some wonderful deeds but the popullation base of the people still involved with catholsism today are certainly more subdued so in my opinion it becomes increadibly dangerous for any group to swallow its words when speaking out against the violence associated with islam. It is even more concerting when one differing relgious group most apologize.
No, sorry but what pisses everyone off isn't that Billy is saying that Islam is violent. It's that he advocates the most extreme and ridiculous measures as a solution . . . That and he excoriates us all while he's at it. Any sane person has seen where that leads. We've already alienated the International community with The War in Iraq alone; can anyone imagine the firestorm if we decided to attempt to invade the entire Middle East? We couldn't even do it from a logistical standpoint with all of the trouble that Iraq alone has given us and we certainly wouldn't be getting any help in "Operation Sandbox Suicide" or whatever you would call such a Military action.
There has to be a more balanced approach between defending ourselves against the radicals that pose an actual threat and encouraging more moderate people in the Middle East to feel like it's worth it and that we are willing to listen. Even though the patterns of violence are clear for whatever reason I refuse to beleive that everyone from that region is inhumane. Insular maybe but Inhumane is a bit of a stretch; Consider our own reactions to attrocities, it doesn't register unless we feel that it affects us directly but if you insult the right people in the right way there are bound to be consequences. It all depends on what your values are.


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09-21-06

Having a pissing contest to decide which religion is worse is fucking stupid. So stop. All the major religions have horrible atrocities committed in their name, and until the entire world wakes up out of its stone age stupor, stop worrying about the spiritual world (God is a fairy tale, you fucking morons), and start concentrating on the physical world, its going to continue. That will never happen.

As it is, its the most Assinine thing I've ever heard to say that we have to "protect our freedom" by taking away our freedom of religion. If you can't see how flawed that is you're even more blind than I'd previously thought.


  
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09-21-06

Iron it doesnt matter, they are all sympathtic to there cause. It could be handled alot better instead of the pope apologizing he should have said go f yourself and prove to me that your something more then a band of thugs. If the Islamic community responded with violence then we respond in kind and no more worrying about there civalians they dont worry about ours. Honestly we are losing the most important aspect of the battle and that is our politcal strength the international community views us as week and the internal turmoil is just disgusting.


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09-21-06

i think muslims are too fucking uptight. most of the christians i know are pretty decent guys but i could walk up and curse at god for an hour and they wouldn't so much as go red in the face. do that in front of most muslims and i would imagine it could get nasty. personally, i think extremists and fanatics should all be shot through the head, they just piss me the fuck off. and it seems like there are a hell of a lot more fanatic muslims than fanatic christians. though christianity does have its fair share. i think the pope is a dumb shit who should probably be starving, i mean, who the fuck is he anyway? hell. i say if you love jesus and believe in god who needs a pope? or a preacher? or anybody but yourself and the lord? and if you love muhammed and believe in allah then fuck everybody else, just try to get along and go with it. maybe muslims just can't do that because their religion is so centered on converting everyone to the "truth", in which case the religion is, in my opinion, flawed. people should find religion, not the other way around.
my verdict: kill anybody anywhere who tries to force his beliefs on others, through violence, intimidation, etc. we just don't need it, folks, and it pisses me off.
btw the pope is such an ass for saying what he did. what the hell was he going for? what was he thinking? i say shove a nuke up his ass and use him to bomb the middle east. shits, all of them.
then again, we're all gonna die anyway so who gives a fuck what happens? i basically just kick back and enjoy (or at least watch) the show.


O divine art of subtlety and secrecy! Through you ... we can hold the enemy's fate in our hands. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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09-21-06

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy the Kidd View Post
Prove it. Thats a silly lie on par with 9/11 was an inside job. But since you brought up persecution of Jews, I know a group of people today doing that.

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mis...handnazis.html
You prove it

I know it and it is common knowledge.... hell.... the church apologized for it..... just because you live in the woods and do not grasp common knowledge does not mean that I have to provide you with a linkie for every single small fact I toss out there



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Drink More Coffee!!!!!
  
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09-21-06

While I agree that we shouldn't back down in the face of extremist aggression; all this begs a question for me: Lets assume for the sake of argument that moderates exist in the Arab population; now, has there been any effort to open a dialogue between them and the Western World?
I know that some (Or at least one of you), will attempt to argue that moderate Muslims do not exist due to their silence when extremists attack but lets think about this logically: Why would they care? If talking does nothing to bring peace why should they even bother to try even if they do know better and do long for peace? Just look at our own situation; so many people in America spoke out against the Iraq War but even in a Democracy, it did nothing to stop the Extremists on our side. Can we expect Moderate Muslims to really care to speak out when doing so might put them in danger from the terrorist organizations in their own homeland? Obviously, they also know that we give less then a shit about them on average, so to seek our absolution in the face of this is equally futile and pointless . . . Once again, on our side of things; what happens when Christian Terrorists bomb an abortion clinic? Do we shun the extremist views of some Christians as being incompatable with American values? Obviously not . . . It won't matter until it reaches your own backyard . . .
I think I just depressed myself . . .


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09-21-06

its one thing for a bunch of US Citzen anti abortions to blow up a clinic its entirely diffrent when a bunf of forgein exteremists threaten your homeland. Furthermore the majority (place emphasis on that word) of individuals involved in anti abortion demonstration condem that kind of action. The leaders of the muslim world dont speak out against the actions of the extremists they may say that this is not the way of islam but i have never heard one person of that faith denounce there actions. Do you think the pope would simply say this is not the catholic way to a bunch of catholic extremists committing the same acts no he would say this behavior is wrong what your doing is moraly wrong and against the word of god, not oh well they just interpret the scirpture diffrent. We are becomeing week and we have done it to ourselves buying into this bullshit, look at this pissant chacheeeeseee dushbag speaking on the floor of the un saying our president is the devil and no Americans seem outraged by this. I dont give a shit if the guy really is the devil he would be our devil and no scumbag that has spent the last month travelling to every nasty little corner of the globe is going to spit in our face like that. We are losing our grip on being the world super power, I am okay with that its was bound to happen sooner or later, what we all should have a problem with is the type of world leaders that are upstageing us and whom are very truely a threat to our way of life.


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09-21-06

Actually, the Pope has been pretty quiet about Catholic Extremists last I knew.


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Last edited by Iron's Rite : 09-21-06 at 20:57.
  
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