i remember reading a certain person's view on karma, and he decribed it as ones guilt, after reading what you posted it seems your view is very similar....ill let you know if i find out where i read it...

pleaswe, post. I'd love to read it.

One thing I think gets left out of the karmic debate is the role played by an avenging spirit, I agree that people create their own reality to a great extent, but can other people create your reality too. So would you think that parts of our karma might be outside our control.

Also if humans have a collective consciousness, then do they have a collective karmic debt for the acts commited by all human beings?

horned: hmmm...I've never thought of that...but a collective karmic debt would at least effectively prevent ascension, that much I'm pretty sure of. With all the terrible things humans has done, and still does, it would be impossible to get 'pure' enough to reach the next level...

I think/believe that the total karma for humanity (and all the Universe realy...) and the individual karma are seperate... The Total is like the individual karma for the "Universe/Person" on the next level...

So AAAAA are you saying that the nature of the next level is determined by the total Karma?

And Clearwitch, do you think that if human karma did block ascension, that you might have to disassociate yourself from the human consciousness in order to advance?

Yes to both IMHO

edit (elaboration): I think/believe that there are infinate levels ("all numbers are infinate, it makes no difference" Liber AL vel Legis) of essential chaos - ordered by the human mind into human form. Therefore "human" and "Universe" is one and the same, each being - from the perspective of the level below - a Universe in it's own right. As each human individual on our level has an individual karma bank, so does the "Univers/Human", which is made up of that of all of it's parts - which are those individuals on the level below. Sorry, I suck at explanations...

i think solitude is a way to reach that next level, but that depends on what you do while you are in it, you have to work at it, its not just gona come, this world is filled with distractions and people are one of those, if you think its wrong wanted to seperate yourself from people, think of how most people are, and maybe thats what really needs to be done, cause it hasnt happened yet....

clearwitch -yeah, except the place i read it didn't say anything about doing hypnosis regression or anything like that, i think it was more the meditation angle. Kind of -believe you know all things and you just might... the trick with that if it works too well is not to go mad i'd think...


hm.. i think other people alter our (little r) realities, but only if we allow them to influence us.. and then we are responsible for the results of that decision as well.. It is only out of our control if we allow others to dictate right and wrong to us, and tell us what we should feel guilty about...

so what is this about an avenging spirit? i'm confused...

AAAAA, so is it that you're saying we are each essentially in our own universe when we ascend, the new world we perceive being essentially ours yet shared through collective consciousness with all other minds in the way that we determine the nature of that universe.Our individual consciousness/karma determining our place within that world?.

Posthuman, I agree, I think some of humanity is definitely bad news to be mentally linked with.

Angelfishy, I agree that if we allow others to dictate the nature of our reality then we are subject to their morality, our limits are the limits we place on ourselves. But in the event that we hurt someone or something I'm only too aware that even if you don't know that you've done "wrong" by them, their etheral form will try to take revenge and thats often what's seen as karma. One thing I've noticed is that murderers seem to prefer to kill passive people because there is no immediate "karma" for killing someone who is naturally gentle and forgiving. But attack someone who is aggressive in nature and though they may be physically dead they seek out the attackers and would if aggrieved, have the potential to rip then to pieces psychically. I've noticed that murderers and those who who would incur a great deal of karmic debt have the innate ability to control the minds of their victims, so that they don't feel aggrieved and they thereby avoid real retribution.

no, that's not actually what i mean. If one allows oneself to be influenced by others -their opinions of what is right/wrong, one's parent's religion, etc.. then we are responsible for placing ourselves under those limitations, not that we are permanently subject to their morality.
They can try to take revenge on me, but i'm not convinced... I always had the idea that the vengeance force was just a general cosmic spanking, or a rebirth in horrid circumstances, depending on what you'd done...

Now this conversation is starting to get interesting. Which means I have to toddle out and gather some more info...

horned: I agree with 5a on that, mainly because it makes sense. I'm not seeking ascension this time around, so I really haven't studied the matter much, I'm just generally interested in what others think. But I'll run that question by a few others I know that are trying to ascend, and get back to you with the results.

angel: I would believe that...after all, for most people it's a massive amount of information to comprehend at once. I agree with the concept that everything is possible if you will it to happend, but you have to be confident that this is what you want. After all, it's not always pretty things you experience. The trick is, I think, to take one step at a time. For instance by deciding to recall one lifetime at a time. There is great power in knowing your past, but only if you are able to handle the memories.

Okay folks, on the question about a collective karmic debt, here's the answer I got. The one that made most sense, at least.

'we are all Individuals living in a state of Oneness. All link to all that was is and will be and all that is linked to you me and everyone. We are like waves on the ocean. Each wave is part of a whole but at the same time each wave maintains it's individuality. '

Did anyone get any wiser here..?

Waves in the Ocean or ripples in the pond same thing. Dont know which one I like better.

To explain more clearly, it's a bit like this

You tap into the knowledge pool so to speak, you don't read other peoples minds you use them, two heads are better than one and all that.

In 250 years the Sumerians invented Law, cities, Writing, History, Farming, Hospitals, schools and of course the wheel (I left some stuff out but I'm not fully awake yet) They also nvented a different way of learning which allowed them to do all of this.
It's a combination of What Angelfishy said with training yourself to step back from a problem so that you never get caught not being able to see the forest for the trees.

Feroluce: Can you ellaborate a little on their learning method..? You got me interested.

Ah now, that'd be telling wouldn't it Check your PM

Oooh, would you try to explain the Sumerain's learning methods? You have a huge dangerous cat to calm down with the answer if you don't tell me! C'on now.

.....I've always thought of Karma being something like a thin web of Life....Holding past, present, and future together.
And i just know that i will be able to handle the memories from my past life. Actually, i have a very strong strange feeling that i have been here on this planet for more than several thousand years....Even the wolves have memories backtracking to their ancestors. They remember everything.

>^..^<

Sorry, SavageBloodCat, no new info on learning.. except perhaps the following enlightenment...

Hindu Karma : from Sanskrit, meaning literally, "Deed"
1) A mental or physial action
2) the consequence of a mental or physical action
the sum of all consequences of the actions of an individual in this or some previous life
4) the chain of cause and effect in this world of morality

so for Hindus it's definitely personal, and may or may not accumulate over lifetimes. good karma is the thing to be sought after, but after one achieves enlightenment, no further karma accumulates...

Buddhist/Zen Karma: from kamma, meaning "desire"
Universal law of cause and effect, which.. takes effect in the following way: the deed produces a fruit under circumstances; when it is then it falls upon the one responsible. For a deed to produce it's fruit, it must be morally good or bad, and be conditioned by a volitional impulse, which in that it leaves a trace in the psyche of the doer, leads his destiny in the direction determined by the effect of the deed. Since the time of ripening generally exceeds a lifespan, the effect of actions is necessarily one or more rebirths, which together constitute the cycle of existence.the effect of an action... is detemined by the intention of the action... only a deed that is free from desire, hate or delusion is without karmic effect... in order to liberate oneself from the cycle of rebirth, one must refrain from both "good" and "bad" deeds....

eesh, sometimes i think they write these things to be deliberately confusing.. anyway, so buddhists and zens(??) can only escape the cycle by detatchment from the results of their actions (we started to cover this before...) because both good and bad actions cause karma, which keeps you pinned to the wheel of samskara (life-death-rebirth) and the results only accumulate after the end of a given life, or perhaps partway into the next one...

So watch out for the fruit!

But that sounds alot like karma to me, if vengence can take on a role that determines a future effect then isn't it doing exactly what karma is seen to do. To abstract the role of vengeance from a conscious mental construct to be seen instead as some kind of law of balance, is to relegate the role of the victim to that of always being the victim of that act. If "karma"/revenge is created from within the mind of the victim and they have faith in this supposed