okay my fine, dear gentlemen...perhaps we can have a little bit more clarification for my benefit?...i'm just not grasping how chaos and magick work together...when there is chaos in my life, it's not a nice scenario for me, however my life is very magickal...so how does it all work?

Necro already has plans to broach this subject so I'll leave it to him

and anyway, I'm not allowed to talk about this....

not even for me?

Chaos is magick:p

I'm with Red on this one

Well i'll try to explain this concept. chaos is by definition the oppisite of order. when you take 100 people and line them up. you have some order but the chaos is that they are not in 2 lines male and female. you devide them up into this catagories and line them up again. more order. but they arn't in line from shortest to tallest. chaos. you can keep sorting them and getting them more and more ordered but they still have different life experences. chaos.

another way to think of this concept is a scale (think scales of justice). when you dump iron filings into the chaos pan some fall just so to where they act like a compass and turn to point north south. these magically disapear and re-appear on the ordered side. this shifts some of the filingings in the chaos pan and the now balance just so to act like compasses. these disappear and re-appear in the order pan but they disturb some of those that were there before and they get moved back to the chaos side. the scale starts to balance but every time it gets close to having all the filings on one side the "new arrivals" or the "disapperence of the old" shifts the balance so there is always some filings in each side.

how this concept affects you and your magic is that chaos and order are both relitive to the viewer. say you are using energy for one of your spells. you have focused it to do generally what you want it to do. formed you order over it. now I the nasty psy vamp come along and see this energy being used for a useless purpose (your spell to give your lover extra endurence that night) so i siphon it off since it's in chaos to me. and form my own spell with it placeing my version of order over it. (mind controlling your neighbor to lower his walls and let me feed). to me this use of the energy is ordered but to you it has just spread choas not only in your spell but also in your neighbors house. Now you siphon off this energy from me and return it to it's original purpose in your spell. sewing chaos to me but imposing order to you. This is an example i know it sounds silly. but i'm not the greatest teacher in the world. and i'm trying to explain an abstract concept. And my disclaimer for all those that don't know the meaning of example. i am not nor have i ever been a psy vamp and i would never use magic in the way described above. i have no knowledge of Jordyn's love life and i don't know if she uses magic in this way or not.

i don't know if this is going to help you or confuse you more, but i hope it helps.

i'm to...fractured maybe? it sounds like one needs some order for chaos...i have seem to have neither so, maybe that's why the psychic vampire types are unable to do anything to me rather than cringe in pain or awe...

your missing the point. the point was that what you see as order another may see as chaos. and what they see as order you may see as chaos. it depends on the perspective. i tell you and 9 other people to line up. you do so one infront of the other. i think your all stupid cause i see lining up as sholder to sholder. when i tell you this you think i'm the idiot. to you, you have just put yourselves in order. to me your still in chaos. who's way is right? am i automatically wrong because i don't see eye with you? or are you wrong because you don't think just like i do? it's a matter of PERSPECTIVE.

there also relitive terms. you see ten marbels in a jar you see slight chaos but mostly order cause they arn't lined up on the floor where you can step on them and break your neck. your child however sees little order to them and mostly chaos because they arn't lined up on the floor where he can play with them.

why focus on words like stupid and wrong versus right? different perceptions simply make great discussion...i understand the concept of chaos as being disorganised confusion, stressful and ovewhelming energy that makes me a very unhappy person...

if i tell people to line up, they are front to back, than it's not their fault, the fault is mine for not being specific about how i wanted them to line up...

if chaotic magick works the way i'm understanding your explanation than by my perception, a chaotic magician would be a poor user, for the fact that he couldn't get his magick lined up correctly or specify what it needs to do that can result in some negative results cosmically, i know this is not true because I know fero's capabilities.

*bangs head on desk* The Order/Chaos theory can be applied to anything. Chaos doesn't necessarly have to be negative and order doesn't necessaraly have to be good. this is one of the basic laws of existance. it permeates everything in the universe. chaos can be the difference between 2 snowflakes. they form differently. chaos doesn't mean disordered all the time. it can also mean different.

find and post a picture of something you think is ordered or in chaos and i'll try this again.

i've used this analogy already...my perception of my life...a still river, you look at the river calmly winding along the path, every now and then it'll pool up, but continues on. Except for some ripples or swirls you don't see it moving, but it is...just at a pace where it provides the necessary aspects for life...a pleasant place they can find fresh greens, bath, drink and play...

chaos are the wild rapids, wooshing through a canyon, it goes so fast and furious that only rafters, trout and grizzly bears are able to do anything with that water...

none of these i perceive as having order, just paths they are meant to wind along...until they return to the ocean and become part of the grand cycle of water...i see no order in nature, necro and i had that discussion...order is to control something...you can't control nature...

can chaos exist without order or order exist without chaos?

yes. chaos with out order means destruction. order without chaos means stagnation, means no adaptability, means destruction.

in nature predator hunts prey. water flows down hill. spring follows winter. the young age and die. most of the mother's creatures are symetrical. all examples of order in nature.

perhaps we should discuss the definitions we're using for chaos and order...those examples i understand...it's the way of nature, however none of that is magickal..it's fact, it's textbook science...science and man makes laws and order...that still doesn't explain to me how chaos applies to magick...is it not possible that people are able to do magick and not be either chaotic or ordered? The energies just do what they will by influence?

because a creature dies does not mean it ends...there's no order to what happens in the end, more of a cicle, how is a circle chaotic?

lol ok we have the basics. now for round 2. PERCEPTION!!!

now keep an open mind and don't say chaos=bad order=good it's not that simple.

first i'm going to lay down the laws of magic.

1. magic is the manipulation of energy to get a desired effect.

2. magic is neither good nor bad.

3. different people use magic in different ways.

4. to use magic differently the energy is manipulated differently.

5. when magic is manipulated differently it has different effects.

now if you feel that any of these are incorrect inform me of it and tell me your perception on it.

now imagine a spell to light a candle and a spell to stir a glass of water.

these are 2 very different spells. 2 people are casting them. each think they are casting the same spell. when the first looks at the second casting his spell he thinks the second is trying to light a candle. to him the magic being used is choatic to what he think is suspose to be happening. the second who knows he is stiring the water sees his own magic as being very ordered. then when the first casts his spell the same thing happens but it is the second thinking that the first's magic is very chaotic.

the perspectives of each color his thinking of order and chaos. in one's perception the magic was ordered. to the other it was chatoic. how the energy is being used to begin with is often thought of as chaotic. however it usually is serving some purpose that is ordered in some way. this ordering could be by mage or green mother, or something else.

i understand what you're saying with the two spells, kind of like the difference between schmendrick in the last unicorn and...the goblin king in labrynth...schmendrick had no control over the magick, he called it and the magick did what the magic wanted...the goblin king on the other hand focused his magick so that when he wanted a crystal ball to become machines of slic and dice they did so...YOUR perception of chaos and order?

i still don't understand how you can say chaos and order are necessary for all magick to work, isn't there the possiblity that magick is neither, it just is?

not exactly. it's how different people perceive things differently. such as if i started posting christian properganda in ever thread at DF most people here would get pertty anoyed with me. i would be spreading chaos (not to mention making a ass out of myself). but a christian might see my actions as spreading the orderly word of god. your both seeing the same thing but getting different things out of it, because of your perceptions.

as for can't magic be neither? yes it can be neither but to be neither it would be nothing. to be something it would have to be both.

*Tips head to one side*

A Spell orders energy... Love is a shape.. You order those energies to that shape.
Or if you cast a spell to cancel out love.. You destroy the harmony it lived in and causes chaos... until it finds a new order.

Jordyn, Why are you so hooked on the idea that order, limits or rules mean control?

maybe it's just the closet rebel in me, and it does make for such delightful conversation

i don't think they necessarily mean control, however they are a means for controlling people who lack the will to remain control of themselves, applying basic sensibilities to their life and living in harmony with others...

being able to control your energy direction is a good thing, sadly too many lack this control, i've witnessed what happens when people have no control, most often it's when people are just beginning to tap into a source and don't yet have the wisdom to direct it in a positive manner...

i just don't understand how people can place limits, rules or try to apply order to that which was not made to conform to man conceived perceptions.

ordeith...i agree running around posting christian propaganda would be chaotic, it would not be a reasonable or sensible thing to do...there's no reason for doing so when there's a perfectly fine christian board in religion

and i would still like a clear definition of what "chaos" and...anti chaos magick is...sorry gentleman, i appreciate the great efforts that have been put forth in explaining it to me, it's just not taking root...

Observing something to be true like "what goes up, must come down" or "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction" is not control, even though it states a rule or limit... but even then observation is not proof.

Chaos Magick is change Magick thats it... but it does have it's negative side.
And Order Magick is Magick that Empowers and Stablizes the Current Harmony.. Or Can Empower a specific harmony until it overpowers other harmonies.

So in the Efforts of Helping... What specifically do you want to know?