Your argument is sound. There is more than one cause for such experiences. The helmet is one example of how the brain can be fooled. Meditation does the same thing, altering internal perceptions. Causing visions, if you prefer. You can get similar results with certain sound frequencies. People experiencing sensory deprivation report strange experiences. All manner of methods exist to have such experiences, all involving alteration of brain activity.

The point is, you believe in supernatural causes for certain experiences, whilst i focus on the physical causes.

You should read up on what the good doctor did, if you want to create your own "God Helmet".


Human apotheosis is a long way from where we are now. I am very glad of this. We do not deserve the power we have now, let alone even greater power. When we become the kind of race that understands our place and our responsibilities, we should still not consider ourselves gods. No worthy race would.

At this present moment, i do believe it is beyond us. Simply because there is no concrete evidence to support that this ability exists. In the future, through use of technology, perhaps. We would need to understand the brain far better than we do now. I am not saying it is impossible. I do not know for certain that there are not psychic individuals out there now. I just don't believe there are.

Yes, subjective evidence differ greatly from its objective counterpart, but is there really such a thing as truly objective evidence? Are those handling this objective evidence not also individuals? Not humans? Where is this research facility? And, not to forget; are they hiring?!?

Ok, so you percieve science as a concept far surpassing mankind's fallible memories and subjective nature.
In that case I must say I am happy on your behalf that you have found your own religion that you have chosen to follow. - Although you are not alone; quite a number of people turn to science for answers these days... in fact, much like people did when christianity was introduced for real some odd 1000 years ago. They said it gave them peace to know that something was absolute, concrete and parsimonious in its interpretations of the world they lived in. Much like what you are saying now. Anyway, that is for another time and place I guess - let us keep this in aligned with the topic.

You seem to overlook the simple fact that "Science" is not a totalitarian answer for every question known to man any more than religion, and vice versa. In fact, and in defence of scientists, religious leaders and officials are often known to profess their religion's superiority, and that their divine entity "Sees all and knows all" - no scientist right in his mind (that I know of at this moment, of course) has ever made that claim about science.
Science is made up by scientists. Scientists are (mostly anyway) people. People are humans. Humans are biased, fallible and subjective. Always. You see where this is going?
I am not saying that science is biased, fallible and subjective - but then again, quite unlike you, I am not stating that human beings are so either. But I can meet you half way: Quite a number of human beings are afflicted by personal opinions, past experiences and fallible deductions. I am certain you are able to see that Science, being nothing more than a collection of other people's opinions on a matter, have a certain amount of these features as well.

Science claimed man would never lift off the ground and fly. Today that is mankind's most efficient way of travel. Science claimed women should not be allowed to read books because their brains got overheated by it. Science claimed the earth was flat. All these theories that science is built upon, and many more too numerous to count, have been proven wrong by singular individuals with a vision. Darwin was prosecuted for his theories of evolution, and was the laughing stock of the scientific community untill he had attained quite a high age - when said community embraced his ideas. Of course, not long after they did and he got the resources to explore this further, he found that he had been wrong all along - and he was again the laughing stock. Not because he was wrong in the first place, but because he did not believe the same as the majority; his own theory or not - it was now adopted by Science.

If you had ever decided to dive into a subject of science, Vallisk, you would not be so rigorous in your high opinions of it. The fact is that Science is presenting people with the most fickle of glasses for you to perceive the world through. And most human beings accept. Because they want to so badly. Those who do not accept every dish placed in front of them, every opinion relayed to them, are thus not one of "them" and is shunned instead of accepted or even investigated.

Science is without a doubt the most fickle set of ideologies ever to have been professed by man.... or actually:
Science is religion - only more inconsistent.

Religion is at least by and large constant in its teachings, something science is not:
"Atoms are the smallest building blocks of the universe! Uhm... no.. sorry... I mean QUARKS are the smallest building blocks of the ... huh? what? you mean...?!? Gah.. Sorry folks, Psions are the smallest... and that's a fact! For now, anyway.. we'll get back to you with the next set of empirical evidence as soon as we can manufacture it."

Go figure.

You know - there is a psychic in California (this is one of a few instances by the way - involving different people) That can find missing bodies, and tell who the murderer was with her statements on where to find the physical proof. But I suppose you would make light of that also...

You limit yourself by allowing science to think for you. You do not reach out to find what abilities you possess, therefore you will not develope them.

Have you two ever considered the possibilities that you may both be right?
That the answers must be found in both "lairs", so to speak?

Yes, Mordeo. I refuse to believe that it has purely scientific causes, but I can, and already has, accepted that it can explain some incidents people refer to as supernatural. Just not all of them.

I see Science as a method to look at the world, investigate and understand it. If this is your definition of religion, then so be it. My definition of religion is something which involves blind faith, rather than blind fumbling for a grasp on reality. I freely admit Science is flawed. I freely admit it is constantly evolving and changing theories. I like that! It shows we are moving towards something. We are trying, rather than accepting. I don't like the "God did it!" explanations. I think Science is the best way to gain understanding of what matters to me. It is tackling the questions i want answered. I respect it for that, but i do not bow down at the altar of Science.

Religion is set in stone, whilst Science is flowing. That is part of the beauty of it. Leave the spiritual side to the individual, if they care. Let the secrets of the universe, be the preserve of Science.

Nothing is set in stone. Religions has changed and evovled throughout the centuries.

But, I think you are looking at this wrong. Not once was religion mentioned. We've never involved any gods or deities into this. Religion and Spirituality are two different things.

Spirituality is constantly changing too, same as science. It is a matter of constant research, trial and error, striving to accomplish an understanding as complete as possible. We don't just sit down and accept the easiest solution, we try to figure out how it happened, why it happened, and how we can make it happen again.

I've heard stories about how people claiming to be psychic, have slowed down cases, and wasted police time with information that was incorrect. The police still had to follow up these useless leads. Just because this person gets a few hits, is no reason to become excited. Let us see her take part in laboratory studies, with strict conditions. Then we can check whether her claims appear valid.

I'm quite happy as i am.

I think you missed my point. Religion is a set of rules and ideas, which remain constant. Until the next offshoot, of course. Science is always changing. It has a far more free, body of knowledge.

What you described above, is the scientific method. What i approve of. The correct, imo, way of looking at the world.

Only difference is, I was talking about spirituality. Starting to see my side too soon?

I've always seen your side. I just do not agree with it. I don't believe people can project astrally, other than in their own minds. If you could offer some proof to the contrary, then i would welcome it. I don't see that happening, so my opinion remains the same.

I offered you proof earlier Vallisk, the only proof you should need. It happened.

Can you reproduce things things in a lab? Hell no - we couldn't !!We never even tried to conciously do this in the first place. And I agree with Clear, these things are not religious, they are more spiritual in nature, and as far as I am concerned... when it concerns that I have seen, felt, tasted... if science doesn't agree, it can just go play with someone else, because it is flawed.

I'm not so quick to believe. I admit, i am cynical.

Indeed, that is the same with most people. Their own experience matters more than what Science says about the matter. My own experience is never having seen anything to convince me that these powers exist. So i too, am guilty of holding my own opinions. In this case, they just happen to agree with mainstream Science.

Still, i'm not one to remain closed to the possibility. So, how could i go about having some of the experiences you have talked about? How can i tell if i am psychic, or contact spirits, or something along those lines? Give me something to try, and i will give it a go.

I really don't know. I don't know how this all happened. Is it an awakening? A reawakening? Something we have done thru the span of many lives? I don't know... all I know for sure is that there is a real connection there that can be seen, felt, heard... as real as you are and as real as this keyboard I type on right now.

Fully concious, doing many things, I could feel this. Can I make it happen? I don't think so. Have I sent energy before? Yes. I have, and people have felt it. But not this type of thing. So, rather than dispose of it as "unreal" and going against "science" I will continue to explore it.

I do believe in the supernatural and the spiritual, you know this about me. I do not believe that it makes me ignorant to the scams presented by some people and I am probably doubly certain because of that reason.

I wish to learn and to know. The truth, not fantasy. If I didn't believe in my head that this happened, I would never have said anything at all.

Oh, i'm well aware that you believe in it. I fully accept that you believe it to be true. I'm not doubting your honesty. Not in the slightest. I just doubt your percpetion, based on my own beliefs. I haven't experienced anything like this myself, and i have stated that i am a cynical person. I'm quite firmly based in the physical realm, with little time for the spiritual. I have my beliefs in relation to the spiritual realm, but they don't largely impact on my life.

I think it is great that you want to explore your experiences more. I hope you find some answers. Do you have any suggestions for me? How i could go about experimenting in this area?

Perhaps studying. Study the supernatural, study the possibilities. Meditate. Read about middle eastern religions, like Buddhism, Tao, the others... learn what the "magical" world REALLY stands for other than the pop-hype BS. Learn to focus your energies on certain things and see what you can do. Explore the potential of your mind and your soul.

I will tell you this though, and it's completely off topic but it correlates. I do not have "faith" that magic works. I know for a fact that if I do certain things, I can make things happen, in my life and in the lives of others.

I was very talented in the ways of magic as a child, but was taught it from birth. I put my tarot cards away, but just got a new deck, and it's all coming back. It's slower now, perhaps because A child's mind is not bothered by all the clutter that an adults is. I could do things then that would classify me as a freak, but I know those things are within me now, they just need to resurface.

Chinese, Japanese... they are very in touch with the spirit of the soul. Perhaps that would be a good place to start... Chakra theories, or Taoism.

*shrugs* I really can't tell you the fullproof answer. I know it happens, I don't need to be convinced. But there is a book I have at home, and something in it about Carl Jung. When I get home I will post it. He was very well respected in the scientific community - but he was quite spiritual as well. Gimme four hours and it will be here.