Since all are putting their views, and this is the religion and philosophy section, I shall put mine. If you wish to discuss, I hope it is for a valid reason.

Now a lot of people have said that they can not possibly believe what the BIble says, but how would YOU explain the following:
2 Timothy 3:1-5
1. But know this that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobediant to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3. having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4. betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5. Having a form of Godly devotion but proving false to it's power...
This was completed in 65 C.E., all of these things were not even ocurring in the drastic nature that they are today, so how were these things foretold?

It even prophesied the coming of Alexander the Great and all of the World powers from before him, it even speaks of the shape of the Earth, long before people themselves knew it was round. Now I'm not trying to shove my views in everyone's face, I just want a valid argument for why one says what they say, so give me one if you can.

It describes pretty much to a 'T' what society is like in today's age. People are pretty much unwilling to help others, they only care about themselves. Children are becoming unruly and out of control. People who care not to listen to others opinions and let them have their own minds. I could go on, but however I am not Xtian... I am merely eclectic.

Originally posted by nightcrawler
Since all are putting their views, and this is the religion and philosophy section, I shall put mine. If you wish to discuss, I hope it is for a valid reason.

Now a lot of people have said that they can not possibly believe what the BIble says, but how would YOU explain the following:
2 Timothy 3:1-5
1. But know this that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobediant to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3. having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4. betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5. Having a form of Godly devotion but proving false to it's power...
This was completed in 65 C.E., all of these things were not even ocurring in the drastic nature that they are today, so how were these things foretold?

It even prophesied the coming of Alexander the Great and all of the World powers from before him, it even speaks of the shape of the Earth, long before people themselves knew it was round. Now I'm not trying to shove my views in everyone's face, I just want a valid argument for why one says what they say, so give me one if you can.

oh god, im at work and dont feel like explaining how over-generalized that is....maby tommarow when im bored.

RUN FOR THE HILLS, JESUS IS A COMIN'!!!!!

Originally posted by Pyrric Dicktory


oh god, im at work and dont feel like explaining how over-generalized that is....maby tommarow when im bored.


Talk about being over-generalized. You cannot read that scripture and think that it in no way describes the times we're living in. Are you living in a cave?

I appriciate your comment though NightWild

There was a time when I'd argue with you prophecy freaks. There was a time when I posted dozens of actual logical arguments. Those times are long gone.

Originally posted by Miranda and the Tempest



Talk about being over-generalized. You cannot read that scripture and think that it in no way describes the times we're living in. Are you living in a cave?

I appriciate your comment though NightWild

to be truthful, we are living in times 2000 years after the scripture....

oden had an eye that can see all....although it left him without an eye. this is much more practical then christ.

pyrric says fuck off.

Originally posted by Miranda and the Tempest



Talk about being over-generalized. You cannot read that scripture and think that it in no way describes the times we're living in. Are you living in a cave?

I appriciate your comment though NightWild




Your most welcome Miranda. Looking through the years, perhaps humans may have evolved a bit too fast for their own good. However, it could be good or it could be bad. All depends on how we look at it..... and if one's a pessimist like moi, then the outlook is none too good.

Idle hands are the devil's playground there Dicktory..... oh wait, you mean I control you?!?!?! what fun that could be :)

Oh but I forgot being a smart ass around here can be hazardous to one's health. And, stating one's own personal opinions is enough to get a rather hard thrash from other members.

Originally posted by Miranda and the Tempest



Talk about being over-generalized. You cannot read that scripture and think that it in no way describes the times we're living in. Are you living in a cave?

I appriciate your comment though NightWild

I usually find myself defending the Christian viewpoint, but you're either a) an idiot, or b) acting like an idiot. You do realize that the description above could be used to describe just about, oh, ANY CIVILIZATION THAT EVER FUCKING EXISTED UPON THE FACE OF THE FRICKIN' EARTH!!??!?!?!?!?!?! It's not the end times childrun, it's human nature.

Tell me about it, I sometimes wonder if you're Jesus in disguise.

Who let my secret out?

Something also to add.

The world hasn't changed all that much. All of that stuff that has been mentioned biblically has been going on since the dawn of time.

Just because some of the world has experienced moments of repression (I'm referring to the Victoria Era/Puritan Era's, where if you parted your hair on the wrong side people were apt to put you in the league of satan) does not mean the rest of the world was not going through those same exact things.

The world has always sucked. This isn't something that is all of a sudden happening. Bad things have always happened. There's a quote somewhere that says "There is nothing new under the sun" (can't remember where). The recent school shootings that have us so appalled? The only reason they are happening with more frequency now is because guns are easier to get and easier to take out lots of people with.

We aren't degrading as a society. We're staying pretty much the same. I mean think about how people used to flock out and have family picnic's just to see some guy get hung. I find that whole thing rather barbaric. Many people do, but it was common place then.

Also, everyone since day one thought they were living in the end times. Heck, the disciples thought they were living in the end times. According to Hindu beliefs we are living in Kali Yuga. Or a period where there is great amounts of negativity and destruction. Supposedly it's lasted for..umm..the last 5000 years or so. That's one long stretch of end times.

I don't think the world is going to end any time soon. I think we may be headed towards some sort of cataclysmic disaster, but that's what the world does when there's too many people on it. Hey, the plague got rid of the bulk of Europe's population quite nicely.

Stuff like this makes me sad.

The "Nothing new under the Sun" quote is, ironically enough, from one of the Letters in the New Testament of the Bible. Forget which, but it's there.

Really?

Damn, I'm a bad Sunday School girl for forgetting that.

Each generation sees the world for the first time, thus to them this is the first time this has happened. However, with my particular belief structure with past lives, it's complicated to try and recall past lives. In turn though, if one is able to recall enough memory they'll see a pattern. All in all, perhaps it is only but a scare tatic to make people more faithful to a particular belief system. Who really knows for sure, as the Bible has been written many many centuries ago (supposedly) and has had countless translations since then.

Interesting. I appreciate all of your comments, but no one seemed to attempt explaining the fact that the Bible saw the forthcoming of Alexander the Great, and the fact that the Earth was said to be a "circle" in the Bible long before man knew it was round. So now I will get more detailed.

Isaiah 40:22
"There is One who is dwelling above the CIRCLE of the earth"
In ancient times the g eneral opinion was that the earth was flat. It was not until over 200 years after this Bible text had been written that a school of Greek philosophers reasoned that the earth likely was sperical, and in about another 300 years a Greek astronomer calculated the approximat radius of the earth. But the ideea of a sperical earth was not the general view even then.

Luke 21:10
"Then he went on to say to them: "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, 11. and there will be great earthquakes, and in one place after another pestilences and food shortages, and there will be fearful sights and from heaven great signs."

War has marred life on the earth for thousands of years. International wars and wars within the nations have been fought. But beginning in 1914 the first WORLD war was fought. This was not merely a conflict between two armies on the battlefield. For the first time, all the major powers were at war. Entire nations-including civilian populations-were mobilized to support the war effort. As foretold at Revelation 6:4, "peace was taken away from the earth." Thus the world has continued to be in a state of upheaval ever since 1914. World war II was fought from 1939 to 1945. According to retired Admiral Gene La Rocque, as of 1982 there had been another 270 wars since 1945. Is more required in order to fulfill this aspect of the prophecy?

"There will be food shortages...in one place after another."
There have been many famines in human history. To what extent has the 20th century been afflicted b y them? World war led to widespread starvation in Europe and Asia. Africa has been stricken by drought, resulting in extensive food shortages. Late in 1980 the Food and Agriculture Organization estimeated that 450 million people were hungry to the point of starvation.
Is anything different about these food shortages?
The problem is no longer local, but global.

Luke 21:11
"There will be GREAT earthquakes"
It is true there have been major quakes in centuries past. It was calculated though that there had been 856 of such earthquakes during during the 2,000 years before 1914. The same tabulation showed that in just 69 years following 1914 there were 605 earthquakes. That means that, in comparison with the previous 2,000 years the average per year has been 20 times as great since 1914

Luke 21:11
"In one place after another pestilences"
At the close of the first world war the Spanish flu swept around the globe, claiming upwards of 20 million lives at a rate unparalleled in the history of disease. Despite advances in medical science, a heavy toll is exacted every year by cancer, heart disease, numerous sexually transmitted diseases, multiple sclerosis, malaria, river blindness, and Chagas disease.

There now you cannot say that the prophecy does not depict a specific civilization. These things are world wide. Continue with your arguments.

Originally posted by nightcrawler
Interesting. I appreciate all of your comments, but no one seemed to attempt explaining the fact that the Bible saw the forthcoming of Alexander the Great, and the fact that the Earth was said to be a "circle" in the Bible long before man knew it was round. So now I will get more detailed.

I'm still waiting to hear your Alexander explanation...

[QUOTE]Isaiah 40:22
"There is One who is dwelling above the CIRCLE of the earth"
In ancient times the g eneral opinion was that the earth was flat. It was not until over 200 years after this Bible text had been written that a school of Greek philosophers reasoned that the earth likely was sperical, and in about another 300 years a Greek astronomer calculated the approximat radius of the earth. But the ideea of a sperical earth was not the general view even then.

This is a case of you reading what you want from a text. It does not say "sphereical" it says a "circle", a circle being a flat, two dimensional shape. EVERYONE in ancient times thought the World was a circle. The Horizon is shaped like a circle, after all, as is the Sun and the Moon, and a circle is the perfect shape. So saying the World is a circle wasn't revolutionary.

Luke 21:10
"Then he went on to say to them: "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, 11. and there will be great earthquakes, and in one place after another pestilences and food shortages, and there will be fearful sights and from heaven great signs."

War has marred life on the earth for thousands of years. International wars and wars within the nations have been fought. But beginning in 1914 the first WORLD war was fought. This was not merely a conflict between two armies on the battlefield. For the first time, all the major powers were at war. Entire nations-including civilian populations-were mobilized to support the war effort. As foretold at Revelation 6:4, "peace was taken away from the earth." Thus the world has continued to be in a state of upheaval ever since 1914. World war II was fought from 1939 to 1945. According to retired Admiral Gene La Rocque, as of 1982 there had been another 270 wars since 1945. Is more required in order to fulfill this aspect of the prophecy?

Wow, war...that's really a new and unexpected condition to human life. Because there were never any wars in Mesopotamia, Greece, Persia and Egypt. There have been lots of wars, actually, involving every Major Power on Earth, it's just WWI was the first time that that happened when there were major powers on multiple continents. The Punic Wars could be interpreted as a World War since all the major powers of the World were involved at the time.

"There will be food shortages...in one place after another."
There have been many famines in human history. To what extent has the 20th century been afflicted b y them? World war led to widespread starvation in Europe and Asia. Africa has been stricken by drought, resulting in extensive food shortages. Late in 1980 the Food and Agriculture Organization estimeated that 450 million people were hungry to the point of starvation.
Is anything different about these food shortages?
The problem is no longer local, but global.

Again, this is a case of something that's been a constant in the human condition for countless centuries. Hunger isn't new. If anything, it's far less at this point in time than any other in history. Next...

Luke 21:11
"There will be GREAT earthquakes"
It is true there have been major quakes in centuries past. It was calculated though that there had been 856 of such earthquakes during during the 2,000 years before 1914. The same tabulation showed that in just 69 years following 1914 there were 605 earthquakes. That means that, in comparison with the previous 2,000 years the average per year has been 20 times as great since 1914

Prior to the 20th century, the only earthquakes that were detected and recorded were ones that caused massive damage. Since then, we've recorded ones that ants wouldn't feel. Is this sinking in?

Luke 21:11
"In one place after another pestilences"
At the close of the first world war the Spanish flu swept around the globe, claiming upwards of 20 million lives at a rate unparalleled in the history of disease. Despite advances in medical science, a heavy toll is exacted every year by cancer, heart disease, numerous sexually transmitted diseases, multiple sclerosis, malaria, river blindness, and Chagas disease.

"In a rate unparalleled in the history of disease"??! What the Hell are you smoking and where can I get some? Ever heard of the Black Plague, y'know, the one that killed one third of the European population??! Not to mention the dozens of recorded plagues in ancient China, Egypt, and India that claimed upwards of a quarter of their population? There have been diseases in specific countries that claimed more than 20 million lives, kid, much less across the entire globe. There have been more diseases cured in the past century than the millenium prior to it.

There now you cannot say that the prophecy does not depict a specific civilization.

I can say that with great ease and confidence, thank you.

These things are world wide. Continue with your arguments.

I'm done with this, thank you. I'm beginning to understand how the Psychic Friends Network thrives...

Thanks for handling those, I'll add that the bible also mentions the earth as having four corners and pillars holding the sky up, but of course those are metaphore and the circle thing means the earth is round. I love how christians arbitrarily decide what is and isn't symbolic depending on the point they're arguing. I'm still working on my arguement that Jesus was emrely symbolic of peace and love and how we should treate each other. But since he's their corporate symbol (along with the good ol cross he's attached to), they'll never drop him from real to metaphore.

Daniel 8:5-7
"I, for my part, kept on considering and, look! There was a male of the goats coming from the sunset upon the surface of the earth. And as regards the he-goat, there was a conspicuous horn between its eyes. And it kept coming all the way to the ram possessing the two horns, which I had seen standing before the watercourse; and it came running toward it in its powerful rage. And I saaw it coming into close touch with the ram, and it began showing bitterness toward it, and it proceeded to strike down the ram and break its two horns, and there proved to be no power in the ram to stand before it. So it threw it to the earth and trampled it down, and t he ram proved to have no deliverer out of its hand."
Daniel 8:21
"The hairy he-goat stands for the king of Greece and as for the great horn that was between its eyes, it stands for the first king." The angel Gabriel informs the prophet Daniel.

In 336 B.C.E., the last king of the Persian Empire, Darius III (codommanus) was crowned. In that same year, Alexander became king in Macedonia. History shows that Alexander the Great proved to be the foretold first "king of Greece." Starting "from the sunset," or the west, in the year 334 B.C.E., Alexander moved quickly. As if "not touching the Earth" he conquered territories and struck down "the ram" Ending the Medo-Persian dominion of nearly two centuries, Greece thus became the fifth world power of Biblical significance.
But Alexander's power was to be short-lived. The vision further reveals: "And the male of the goats, for its part, put on great airs to an extreme; but as soon as it became mighty, the great horn was broken, and there proceeded to come up conspicuously four instead of it, taward the four winds of the heavens."(Daniel 8:8)

Explaining the prophecy, Gabriel says: "That one having been broken, so that there were four that finally stood up instead of it, there are four kingdoms from his nation that will stand up, but not with his power." (Daniel 8:22)

As predicted, at the very height of his victorious career, Alexander was "broken," or died, at the age of only 32. And his great empire eventually came to be divided among four of his generals.

3 other prophecies regarding Alexander
Ezekiel 36:4
"And your(Tyre's) dust they will place in the very midst of the water
In 332 B.C.E. Alexander used the rubble of the old mainland city of Tyre to build a causeway to the island city, which he destroyed.

Jeremiah 51:26
"Desolate wastes to time indefinite are what Babylon will become."
His grandiose plans to rebuild Babylon as his capital thus failed, and finally its site became a desolate waste.

Daniel 11:4
His kingdom will be broken and divided....but not his posterity."
Alexanders heirs were murdered, and the kingdom fell apart


It even foretells the fall of Samaria.
Hosea 10:1,7
"Samaria and her king will certainly be silenced, like a snapped-off twig on the surface of the waters."
in 742 B.C.E., Assyrian forces attack Samaria, the capital city of Israel. After a three year siege, Samaria falls, and in 740 B.C.E, the ten-tribe kingdom ceases to exist.

More reasons for trust in the Bible
The Bible was written over a period of 16 centuries, by some 40 different contributors with diverse backgrounds. Nevertheless, the finished product is harmonious from beginning to end.
The Bible has survived more controversy than any other book. During the Middle Ages, people were burned at the stake simply for possessing a copy of the Scriptures. But no matter the strong efforts to destroy it, it still exists.