i did not start this thread with the intention of starting a fight. and fr0g i dont take kindly to being called queerboy if you disagree with me simply say so name calling is not nesassary. you are partialy right in saying goth as a subculture was started by music but it was also spawned out of our wanting to be differnt and against the culture but unlike the punks ,the culture we come from along with the emo kids, is we are passive.