Originally Posted by turak

This discussion is pontless.

until you have lived without abstraction: you cannot say whether your life would be better or worse without it.

Since you will never live without it: you will never be able to compare two different ways of living.

The point is: you have never lived without it. I have.

You have never lived without indoor plumbing. I have. You have never lived without electricity. You have never lived without indoor heating. I have. You have never lived in a shack in the woods. I have. You have never lived on a farm. I have. You have never lived in a fishing village with no plumbing, and spent your day out on the ocean. I have. You have never lived in the woods and walked in the woods for years. I have. You have never spent your summers as a child in camps in the laurentians with no heating in your cabin. I have. You have never swum in crystal cold lakes in the morning. I have. You have never spent the afternoons sailing on lakes. I have. You have never lived without all the comforts of civilization. I have. You have never gone to the country every weekend. I have. You have never chopped your own firewood and sat by a fireplace in the evening and stared at the flames without thinking and enjoyed the peace and quiet of the evening. I have. You have never gone every weekend to the country... in the fall when the leaves are turning... You have never experienced a sauna in the country by an icy cold stream.

I have lived in both worlds: civilization and Nature.

I have compared living with and without abstraction. You have not.