It has been kind of interesting though, how this topic with some suggestions of direction but no clear thesis to speak of has actually come to a debate of core foundations within people that arent going to change, the outcome and the manifestations of them are just secondary and are what gets to be argued. It's complained that i had no real....planned thought (and rightfully said) but even those after saying that a few times have returned because its fun to argue semantics for the hell of it. ha, so the thread is actually a success in spite of my failure. : P